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Thread: Minute's cheering on Friday

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by parrsaint View Post
    Well unfortunately as usual and rather not unsurprisingly that we will again have to differ.
    Your last sentence reads like the latest fantasy from "Osbournes World."
    Not at all, it is a basic fact that is observable by opening our eyes. It isnt even a matter of opinion.

    If you are poor in this country you will still be fed, educated, have access to a top notch health service, protected by the law and have some welfare payments. Which of these are you denying the existence of?

    Despite what the Hovis adverts look like, the UK was a $hithole in the years that I am talking about. Poor people genuinely were poor where as these days you can actually not work and have a host of things that go well beyond your essentials in life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parrsaint View Post
    Well unfortunately as usual and rather not unsurprisingly that we will again have to differ.
    Your last sentence reads like the latest fantasy from "Osbournes World."
    So people who are unemployed in this country do not actually own TVs or phones then? They do not have houses or flats provided by the state in which to live? They do not have access to clean water and money provided to purchase food and necessities? They do not have access to a healthcare system for which they do not have to pay on the gate? They do not have free dental care or eyecare when unemployed? These are all facts: poor people (and the unemployed would be classified as the poorest, I assume) all have access to these things in this country. If you want real poverty, take all those things away and you have it. Ask anyone aged 70 plus who was poor when young and they will tell you what that kind of life was like.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie's Boots View Post
    So people who are unemployed in this country do not actually own TVs or phones then? They do not have houses or flats provided by the state in which to live? They do not have access to clean water and money provided to purchase food and necessities? They do not have access to a healthcare system for which they do not have to pay on the gate? They do not have free dental care or eyecare when unemployed? These are all facts: poor people (and the unemployed would be classified as the poorest, I assume) all have access to these things in this country. If you want real poverty, take all those things away and you have it. Ask anyone aged 70 plus who was poor when young and they will tell you what that kind of life was like.
    it really is staggering that anyone can deny the existence of all this. If it were you doing this there would be mass mocking of your posts.

    Parsaint - just for clarity (because you are dancing around the issue) are you really suggesting that the standard of living is worse now than what it was several decades ago?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie's Boots View Post
    She isn't being given a state funeral. Princess Diana and the Queen Mother weren't given state funerals either. The last person to have a state funeral was Winston Churchill. A state funeral is paid for by the state. According to The Times, Thatcher did not want a state funeral, she thought it inappropriate to lie in state and she thought a fly past was a waste of money. She is being given a ceremonial funeral, as were Princess Di and the Queen Mum.
    Ahhh, so I assume those funerals are paid for by the funeral fairies???


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie's Boots View Post
    I don't think Thatcher knowingly covered anything up over Hillsborough either. It was the police doing the covering up as we are now discovering.
    She knew what she was doing. Don't kid yourself.

    In fact, you're banging on about how she was in full control of everything she did and that she knew exactly what she was doing with all her policies. Yet she didn't know what she was doing with Hillsborough?

    Bollox.

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/footba...-right-1819976

    and

    http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liver...0252-33137951/


  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great Tom Vol View Post
    Hi
    Blair & Brown Never covered up anything like She Did with Hillborough.

    What about the fact that there were no weapons of mass destruction

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    The ' event' next Wednesday is quoted to be costing £8m. Truly shocking in the current climate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Div View Post
    The ' event' next Wednesday is quoted to be costing £8m. Truly shocking in the current climate.
    Unbelievable!

    You can't even say the economic benefits will be higher like for a royal wedding

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    Quote Originally Posted by headtackle View Post
    But lets not forget the excesses which have nearly ruined us mostly took place under a Labour Government.
    A fact most on the left seem to forget.
    ![/QUOTE]

    Whats the left got to do with recent Labour governments.

    Nowt to do with Thatch giveing the boys In the city free reign to do what they wanted. No sir, no seeds sown there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyl View Post
    it boils down to this

    Would you prefer to live life as a poor person from now or from the 30's 40's or 50's?

    Would you prefer to live life as an average person now or an average person from then?

    It really is no contest, we live in a society where "poor people" have TV's, houses, phones and where poverty is fudged to the term "relative poverty" which basically compares you to rich people. It is a nonsense....the quality of life in the UK is superb, the health care system, education for all, the protection of the legal system and so on.
    If the justification here is that there was some sort of rise in living standards under Thatcher, then the argument is flawed. There were rising standards of living in slaves society in America, under Lenin etc. In fact the former lived in better conditions under slavery than when they were 'free' for a period. Is that an argument in favour of slavery?

    Beside for the sweeping generalisation that poor have TV's etc (and therein setting the debate within the narrow perimeters of goods and money) there have been a hell of amount of studies that has showed the abject failure of the Anglo-American model under Thatcher; that the spectre of Victorian diseases returned to haunt the UK, the attacks on children etc etc.

    Chomsky forever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie's Boots View Post


    Pretty much everything has improved since 1979. Britain was a dire, dire place in 1979.

    Has it not just about everywhere else? I'm pretty sure life under Henry VIII was better than under Richard III.

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    The best article I've read following her demise is, strangely by Russell Brand, in the Guardian. This excerpt from the comments summed it all up for me.

    "I hope I'm not being reductive but it seems Thatcher's time in power was solely spent diminishing the resources of those who had least for the advancement of those who had most" - neatly sums it up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie's Boots View Post
    unelected as they were, in a so-called democracy) had a stranglehold on 'the sick man of Europe' then they have rewritten history.
    Arthur's question - is a government really elected, when it has well under 50% of the national vote?

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    Quote Originally Posted by headtackle View Post
    A fact most on the left seem to forget. While Thatcher may have sown some seeds Blair and Brown had plenty of time to cut down shoots and saplings rather than allowing them grow to fruition. They were far to keen on banning fox hunting, getting rid of clause 17 or whatever it was and getting involved in wars with no real purpose or exit strategy and open our doors to all and sundry from overseas.

    Again after years of a labour government am not sure how they are not responsible for the social division and problems which got worse under their stewardship.

    Thatcher also stood up for Britain in Europe something that no one else seems keep to do. Could do with a bit more of the "Up Yours Delors" spirit now !
    Are you blind to the irony of the puerile 'up your Delors' attitude to Europe whilst so called 'opening the door on immigration?' Ironically it was a right wing professor I recently revisited who put it to me thus:

    'The pitchfork little Englanders drive us ever farer from Europe, trying to bellow and dictate from the sidelines, caught up in old colonial attitudes long gone, whilst we fast transition to the United Kingdom of Islam.'
    Last edited by eddiewaringsflatcap; 9th April 2013 at 22:18.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coors View Post

    RIP Mrs T....a few of today's spineless politicians could do well to take a leaf out of your book.
    Doubtless they would benefit from the support of those guardians of morals and decency, Conrad Black, Kelvin McKenzie and Rupert Murdoch?

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyl View Post
    it really is staggering that anyone can deny the existence of all this. If it were you doing this there would be mass mocking of your posts.

    Parsaint - just for clarity (because you are dancing around the issue) are you really suggesting that the standard of living is worse now than what it was several decades ago?
    "the quality of life in the UK is superb, the health care system, education for all, the protection of the legal system and so on."

    If there should be any mass mocking of posts look no further than the one above. You make it sound as if we are currently living in Utopia. We don't even have to go back several decades to see that the general standard of living in the UK for the majority has fallen in recent years. As you are using the crude "electronic goods/consumerist argument" as a often seen trotted out as a measure of societal progress, its worth a reminder that up until the Queens Coronation of 1953 neither rich or poor had a TV. A far better measure of standard of living would be to compare people's disposable incomes and see how they have evaporated under both Coalition, Conservative and Labour governments of recent years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Div View Post
    The ' event' next Wednesday is quoted to be costing £8m. Truly shocking in the current climate.
    Think this quote was made before the budget was forecasted:





    But it's ok, according to Jamie's Boots, the funeral fairies pay for it, not the state.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie's Boots View Post
    So people who are unemployed in this country do not actually own TVs or phones then? They do not have houses or flats provided by the state in which to live? They do not have access to clean water and money provided to purchase food and necessities? They do not have access to a healthcare system for which they do not have to pay on the gate? They do not have free dental care or eyecare when unemployed? These are all facts: poor people (and the unemployed would be classified as the poorest, I assume) all have access to these things in this country. If you want real poverty, take all those things away and you have it. Ask anyone aged 70 plus who was poor when young and they will tell you what that kind of life was like.
    It might surprise you to know I have seen for myself what real poverty actually is in visiting several developing countries without such basic healthcare, sanitation and support systems. The growth of mobile phone ownership in African countries is huge (http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-dev...ess-technology) but that in no way suggests that an increase in technology all of a sudden means that poverty is somehow eliminated or a thing of the past, in the exactly same way that UK household having access to such goods does not mean that poverty is a thing of the past here either.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedVee Admin View Post
    Think this quote was made before the budget was forecasted:




    But it's ok, according to Jamie's Boots, the funeral fairies pay for it, not the state.
    Austerity is never a problem when its the "common people" shelling out the cost.
    I'd have an educated guess what the reaction from the Daily Mail would be if a low income family struggling to cover funeral costs for a family member asked the DWP if they could have a £8 million funeral

  20. #120
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    I was made redundant last November.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie's Boots View Post
    So people who are unemployed in this country do not actually own TVs or phones then? - Purchased whilst I was working but rarely used now, downgraded to Freeview and PAYG.

    They do not have houses or flats provided by the state in which to live? Not at all, actually.

    They do not have access to clean water and money provided to purchase food and necessities? As long as I pay the bill and not at all, actually.

    They do not have access to a healthcare system for which they do not have to pay on the gate? Same goes for Richard Branson, what's your point?

    They do not have free dental care or eyecare when unemployed? Again, NOT AT ALL, ACTUALLY.

    These are all facts: poor people (and the unemployed would be classified as the poorest, I assume) all have access to these things in this country. As long as I pay for most of them.

    If you want real poverty, take all those things away and you have it. I know, I lost my job back in 1990 and had a wife and two toddlers to take care of. I made an art form of shopping at Aldi for a family of four for a week and coming away with change from a £20 note. It's amazing how snug you can feel in a house with no heating in the middle of winter, if you wear several pyjamas and wooly socks that your mam has knitted. Etc.

    Ask anyone aged 70 plus who was poor when young and they will tell you what that kind of life was like. My Dad said: growing up during World War 2 was a ••••••• for everyone.


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    Quote Originally Posted by RedVee Admin View Post
    Ahhh, so I assume those funerals are paid for by the funeral fairies???
    There is the possibility that her own estate could be paying. Do we know whether the Queen's estate paid for the funerals of Princess Diana and the Queen Mother? Or did the taxpayer pay for those? I have no idea. When I read about this in The Times this morning they referred to the state funeral as being paid for the state with no comment on who would pay for a ceremonial funeral but the implication was that it wasn't the state. All the ceremonial funeral means is that Thatcher will be transported to the cathedral in a gun carriage with members of the armed forces accompanying the cortege. She was a very rich woman, thanks in part to her very rich husband, so it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that it is her estate which is paying for the funeral.

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedVee Admin View Post
    I was made redundant last November.
    I've been in and out of work for the last 2.5 years. I'm unemployed at present.

    Your point is?

    Oh, and I don't know what system you are following but I know I am entitled to a free eye test and free dental care when unemployed. I am also entitled to free prescriptions while unemployed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddiewaringsflatcap View Post
    Arthur's question - is a government really elected, when it has well under 50% of the national vote?
    It's more elected than the unions were in the 1970s. At least everyone has a chance to vote for a government.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie's Boots View Post
    Your point is?
    Your wide sweeping generalisation.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie's Boots View Post
    There is the possibility that her own estate could be paying. Do we know whether the Queen's estate paid for the funerals of Princess Diana and the Queen Mother? Or did the taxpayer pay for those? I have no idea. When I read about this in The Times this morning they referred to the state funeral as being paid for the state with no comment on who would pay for a ceremonial funeral but the implication was that it wasn't the state. All the ceremonial funeral means is that Thatcher will be transported to the cathedral in a gun carriage with members of the armed forces accompanying the cortege. She was a very rich woman, thanks in part to her very rich husband, so it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that it is her estate which is paying for the funeral.
    If that were the case, wouldn't it be the funeral directors releasing the details and not Downing Street?

    Get in the real world for crying out loud and stop clutching at a very thin straw.

    Even better, polish up the turd, like the Torygraph have done. Good old Maggie, saved us, the British Taxpayer, £800,000 by refusing the fly past!!! What a sterling old dear she was.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...er-800000.html

    It also says: "and the costs will be borne jointly by the Government and the state."




    nb - despite being made redundant last November, I paid tax in the tax year 2012-13 and every other tax year for the previous 20 years, and I fully intend to pay tax in this tax year too. Before you jump on that point.


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