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Thread: Stadium Watch 10

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    Quote Originally Posted by DD View Post
    Yep. Fully clad up to roof level. We were conned.

    To be fair, just because I'm in construction doesn't mean that I should scrutinise all the plans for a stadium I am going to in my spare time. I trusted this picture to be an accurate reflection.

    Last time I checked, I wasn't actually costing the scheme myself, so I didn't really feel the need and, as such, I shouldn't find it too worrying.
    To be fair in this particular argument, unless you are in the Construction Business, or Planning Business I would'nt of thought there would be a need to doubt the Image above as being final. Studying the final plans for those of us not in the said Businesses, would mean absolutely nothing. We all took the image above as final, and I for one was excited by it. What we have at the moment is still mighty fine, but if an image of that was put up at the side of the current image we are studying, I know which one I would prefer. The outcome is simple; LP needs completing more to the spec of the above image.

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    Shame we never got this, but we'll get there...eventually!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lex View Post
    To be fair in this particular argument, unless you are in the Construction Business, or Planning Business I would'nt of thought there would be a need to doubt the Image above as being final. Studying the final plans for those of us not in the said Businesses, would mean absolutely nothing. We all took the image above as final, and I for one was excited by it. What we have at the moment is still mighty fine, but if an image of that was put up at the side of the current image we are studying, I know which one I would prefer. The outcome is simple; LP needs completing more to the spec of the above image.
    Agree. Why should we have doubted what we were told and shown originally by Saints management when we were spending well in xs of a £1K purchasing 2 x 5yr concess tickets? What grounds (pardon pun) did we have for doubting the evidence of our own eyes and ears? Were we to presume that we were being lied to and deliberately mislead, I don't think so. Anyway, called at shop and ticket office today, both staffed by friendly welcoming ladies who were a joy to deal with. We had a thought about transferring from our snug little igloo in the N stand but as most S stand seats are gone, we'll stay put for 2013. One telling point from one of the ladies when we were discussing transfer was that no work can be done whilst the football matches are on. Does this hint at work scheduled to be done but postponed or deferred until end of soccer season? In that case it'll never get done coz our season overlaps theirs yeh? Confused .com

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    One option go on the road while the work is being done

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    Quote Originally Posted by Albion View Post


    Shame we never got this, but we'll get there...eventually!
    Sadly not - Club already stated that the stadium as it currently stands wont support full cladding - therefore some compromise solution - whether that is the perforated design initially submitted a while back, is anybody's guess. Even if the club had the desire and finances to fully clad the stadium as you see in practically every other new ground, they won't be able to thanks to that genius of a design.

    Quote Originally Posted by grahamk View Post
    Agree. Why should we have doubted what we were told and shown originally by Saints management when we were spending well in xs of a £1K purchasing 2 x 5yr concess tickets? What grounds (pardon pun) did we have for doubting the evidence of our own eyes and ears? Were we to presume that we were being lied to and deliberately mislead, I don't think so. Anyway, called at shop and ticket office today, both staffed by friendly welcoming ladies who were a joy to deal with. We had a thought about transferring from our snug little igloo in the N stand but as most S stand seats are gone, we'll stay put for 2013. One telling point from one of the ladies when we were discussing transfer was that no work can be done whilst the football matches are on. Does this hint at work scheduled to be done but postponed or deferred until end of soccer season? In that case it'll never get done coz our season overlaps theirs yeh? Confused .com
    Presume they are just talking about the current scheduled Liverpool fixtures (none 'til Jan after this week). If nothing starts before Christmas I can't see it happening - unless all they are going to do is stick some perspex up on the edges of the stands as mentioned by a few on here. Can't believe they don't know what they are going to do by now. Maybe you ned to go back into the ticket office with a box of chocs and work the charm - see if you can get any more info!

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    when i am looking to buy a new car i get the brochure and look at the illustrations , i dont look at the detailed specification , now if i order the car it turns up with the back doors or the roof missing, despite the illustrations showing a roof and back doors i think im perfectly within my rights to ask for a refund, similarly with the stadium, the illustrations showed a fully clad stadium , people didnt get what they thought they were getting when they bought a season ticket and are therefore understadibly unhappy, it would be very interesting to see what a court of law would make of this alledged mis representation

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    Quote Originally Posted by stoneislander View Post
    when i am looking to buy a new car i get the brochure and look at the illustrations , i dont look at the detailed specification , now if i order the car it turns up with the back doors or the roof missing, despite the illustrations showing a roof and back doors i think im perfectly within my rights to ask for a refund, similarly with the stadium, the illustrations showed a fully clad stadium , people didnt get what they thought they were getting when they bought a season ticket and are therefore understadibly unhappy, it would be very interesting to see what a court of law would make of this alledged mis representation
    It looks like typical botched up Saints management pre super league era. I thought those days were well behind us!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Houghwood Saint View Post
    It looks like typical botched up Saints management pre super league era. I thought those days were well behind us!
    Don't think we are quite in that league! Clearly many positives, including the stadium (bar all the above), yet the poor communication is very dissappointing. A statement was practically dragged out of the club last time and despite the fact that it said practically nothing new it appeased most people into leaving the issue alone. The end of the season is now well gone and not a single comment on the issue. I hope they comment on it first before we get the calls to see if we can again hit the 10k mark for STs

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    I wish those days were behind us too but sadly they are not.
    This lot couldnt manage a p..s up in a brewery.
    The clubs corporate and marketing strategy is an absolute shambles.
    Yes we have a new ground but its shortcomings are glaringy obvious. Worse still is the clubs attitude to its own supporters . communication is a disgrace on the cladding issue. Speaking for myself, Im not interested in a refund although there is no doubt that the new ground is an example of how to get it dead wrong. Ive changed from the west to the south just to get more shelter from the elements, and will see how it goes next season. Its my view that whatever the club adds to the ground in the form of cladding now, will look like a lash up. It will be a compromise and its a shame that the stadium we have waited so long for has ended up at this. It could have been so different but for bad design, bad overseeing of the build, and the computer generated images of the new ground which served to build false hopes and expectations in supporters minds. All in All its a king sized cock up of enormous proportions that has damaged the clubs reputation. What should have been the envy of other clubs fans has been turned into a laughing stock.

    Quote Originally Posted by Houghwood Saint View Post
    It looks like typical botched up Saints management pre super league era. I thought those days were well behind us!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DD View Post
    Yep. Fully clad up to roof level. We were conned.

    To be fair, just because I'm in construction doesn't mean that I should scrutinise all the plans for a stadium I am going to in my spare time. I trusted this picture to be an accurate reflection.

    Last time I checked, I wasn't actually costing the scheme myself, so I didn't really feel the need and, as such, I shouldn't find it too worrying.
    This is a drawing of the North and South stand elevations:

    http://llpgport.oltps.sthelens.gov.u...ageName=137378

    It was published on the 25th November 2009. There was no need to "scrutinise all the plans". It would of took you 2 minutes to find the above drawing. It would of shown you EXACTLY what the stadium was going to look like.

    When I compared the drawings of the elevations and the computer generated image that I posted before, it was pretty obvious which one was a true representation of the final stadium. I mean, just look at that image again. Everything about it looks dodgy. It looks totally amatuer. The north stand seating area looks tiny. It is shown as being square when we knew that that wasn't the case. It lacks any sort of detail.

    I would rather trust a detailed drawing that shows specific materials than some dodgy 3D image. It's a no brainer really!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Windle Lad View Post
    Sadly not - Club already stated that the stadium as it currently stands wont support full cladding - therefore some compromise solution - whether that is the perforated design initially submitted a while back, is anybody's guess. Even if the club had the desire and finances to fully clad the stadium as you see in practically every other new ground, they won't be able to thanks to that genius of a design.



    Presume they are just talking about the current scheduled Liverpool fixtures (none 'til Jan after this week). If nothing starts before Christmas I can't see it happening - unless all they are going to do is stick some perspex up on the edges of the stands as mentioned by a few on here. Can't believe they don't know what they are going to do by now. Maybe you ned to go back into the ticket office with a box of chocs and work the charm - see if you can get any more info!
    Knowing my luck I'd get served by Josh Perry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by saintlysid View Post
    All in All its a king sized cock up of enormous proportions that has damaged the clubs reputation. What should have been the envy of other clubs fans has been turned into a laughing stock.
    Damaged the clubs reputation??? Grow up. Don't be so ridiculous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SElliott View Post
    One option go on the road while the work is being done
    Did that in 2011 and where did it get us?
    Cost a bomb in petrol but still went to every game bar one knowing that we'd be back "home" for 2012.
    Home is where the heart is and this place hasn't got one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by saint87 View Post
    This is a drawing of the North and South stand elevations:

    http://llpgport.oltps.sthelens.gov.u...ageName=137378

    It was published on the 25th November 2009. There was no need to "scrutinise all the plans". It would of took you 2 minutes to find the above drawing. It would of shown you EXACTLY what the stadium was going to look like.

    When I compared the drawings of the elevations and the computer generated image that I posted before, it was pretty obvious which one was a true representation of the final stadium. I mean, just look at that image again. Everything about it looks dodgy. It looks totally amatuer. The north stand seating area looks tiny. It is shown as being square when we knew that that wasn't the case. It lacks any sort of detail.

    I would rather trust a detailed drawing that shows specific materials than some dodgy 3D image. It's a no brainer really!
    But why would I go searching for information when I was given some? Why would I think that the picture I was shown was wrong?

    It may interest you to know that I was on the committee of the SBS Group, and we were shown plans of the ground months before they were actually submitted. Those original plans DID NOT show open stands. They DID match the 3D drawing. I wasn't aware of any changes, therefore I didn't feel the need to go searching around council websites for plans.

    At the end of the day, the 3D image was the one that the fans saw before buying their season tickets. This includes old age pensioners, children, thickies like me and various assortments of people who wouldn't have had a clue where to find the plans on line. These people were sold something on the basis of a stadium being something it subsequently ended up not being. Dress it up all you like, make yourself out to be much cleverer than the rest of us, but it was still wrong, and you don't have to be particularly intelligent to work that one out.
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    Its you that needs to grow up and take a reality pill . If you took the trouble to check the plans prior to the build then I would suggest that your in the minority as the larger part of our support took the computer generated image as read. I have my own construction company, and and If I build a new pub I expect the brewery to check the plans but not the customers who are gonna sit in the bar and have a pint. Your talking bo..0x. If you dont think the reptutation of the saints management has been damaged by this stadium debacle and the way its been handled, then you need to take off your rose coloured spectacles because it certainly has.

    Quote Originally Posted by saint87 View Post
    Damaged the clubs reputation??? Grow up. Don't be so ridiculous.

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    spot on.

    Quote Originally Posted by DD View Post
    But why would I go searching for information when I was given some? Why would I think that the picture I was shown was wrong?

    It may interest you to know that I was on the committee of the SBS Group, and we were shown plans of the ground months before they were actually submitted. Those original plans DID NOT show open stands. They DID match the 3D drawing. I wasn't aware of any changes, therefore I didn't feel the need to go searching around council websites for plans.

    At the end of the day, the 3D image was the one that the fans saw before buying their season tickets. This includes old age pensioners, children, thickies like me and various assortments of people who wouldn't have had a clue where to find the plans on line. These people were sold something on the basis of a stadium being something it subsequently ended up not being. Dress it up all you like, make yourself out to be much cleverer than the rest of us, but it was still wrong, and you don't have to be particularly intelligent to work that one out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by saintlysid View Post
    Its you that needs to grow up and take a reality pill . If you took the trouble to check the plans prior to the build then I would suggest that your in the minority as the larger part of our support took the computer generated image as read. I have my own construction company, and and If I build a new pub I expect the brewery to check the plans but not the customers who are gonna sit in the bar and have a pint. Your talking bo..0x. If you dont think the reptutation of the saints management has been damaged by this stadium debacle and the way its been handled, then you need to take off your rose coloured spectacles because it certainly has.

    QUOTE=saint87;458449]Damaged the clubs reputation??? Grow up. Don't be so ridiculous.
    [/QUOTE]


    As I recall, even before any plans and images for the new stadium were generated, the narrative from the club was that the new stadium would be fully enclosed.

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    As I recall, even before any plans and images for the new stadium were generated, the narrative from the club was that the new stadium would be fully enclosed.[/QUOTE]

    I'll ask this question to anyone who visits LP. If whilst looking at the plans, and listening to the narrative from the club, prior to the build, if you were told that 3 sides of the stadium would be still open to a certain degree, to the elements, what would you have said or thought ? I would suggest that you would still be excited about a new stadium, and although not totally sure how exposed we would be, you would have gone along with it. But now we all know what it's like inside on most match days,and I'm sure we all agree, we need the cladding, or some sort of protection. We don't need to be in the construction business to know that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DD View Post
    But why would I go searching for information when I was given some? Why would I think that the picture I was shown was wrong?

    It may interest you to know that I was on the committee of the SBS Group, and we were shown plans of the ground months before they were actually submitted. Those original plans DID NOT show open stands. They DID match the 3D drawing. I wasn't aware of any changes, therefore I didn't feel the need to go searching around council websites for plans.

    At the end of the day, the 3D image was the one that the fans saw before buying their season tickets. This includes old age pensioners, children, thickies like me and various assortments of people who wouldn't have had a clue where to find the plans on line. These people were sold something on the basis of a stadium being something it subsequently ended up not being. Dress it up all you like, make yourself out to be much cleverer than the rest of us, but it was still wrong, and you don't have to be particularly intelligent to work that one out.
    You are talking utter nonsense again. You can talk about as many different plans as you like including this unpublished 'original plan' that wasn't submitted and wasn't put before the planning committee. The only plan that matters is the one that the club received permisson for in May 2008. This plan had the stadium with no cladding on. Hence why the club had to later submit another application for the additional cladding. The fact that you where not aware of any changes is no excuse.

    As for being clever, I wasn't the one bringing 'science' into it and claiming to be in the know about the 'construction game'.

    All I have done is point out a detailed stadium drawing that was published years ago and was available to the whole wide world. It was there for everybody to see way before the season tickets were even put on sale. It showed the stadium exactly as it is now (strange that isn't it). Now, for various reasons, people may not have seen it. But that is not my fault. I am simply pointing out that it was there. That is all I am saying. You cannot say that it wasn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by saint87 View Post
    All I have done is point out a detailed stadium drawing that was published years ago and was available to the whole wide world. It was there for everybody to see way before the season tickets were even put on sale. It showed the stadium exactly as it is now (strange that isn't it). Now, for various reasons, people may not have seen it. But that is not my fault. I am simply pointing out that it was there. That is all I am saying. You cannot say that it wasn't.
    You're missing the point. You are obviously correct that those plans from 2009 were available to see if people knew they were there, and you are correct that they more or less match up with the reality of the completed stadium. The point you're missing is that that plan was NOT the one Saints showed to fans who rolled up to hand over their money for season tickets. If those plans had existed since 2009 and they were correct then why didn't Saints simply use them when showing fans what the stadium would be like? Why did they produce 3D plans that didn't actually match the reality of the completed stadium? When you are asking people for money and support (some for 5 years and a thousand quid) it is the most basic customer service to use the most accurate plans for the stadium they are asking people to pay to attend.

    The plans you saw are irrelevant, they are not the ones Saints publicised and they aren't the ones Saints used when asking for people's money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    You're missing the point. You are obviously correct that those plans from 2009 were available to see if people knew they were there, and you are correct that they more or less match up with the reality of the completed stadium. The point you're missing is that that plan was NOT the one Saints showed to fans who rolled up to hand over their money for season tickets. If those plans had existed since 2009 and they were correct then why didn't Saints simply use them when showing fans what the stadium would be like? Why did they produce 3D plans that didn't actually match the reality of the completed stadium? When you are asking people for money and support (some for 5 years and a thousand quid) it is the most basic customer service to use the most accurate plans for the stadium they are asking people to pay to attend.

    The plans you saw are irrelevant, they are not the ones Saints publicised and they aren't the ones Saints used when asking for people's money.
    Absolutely spot on1 I went to look at the "plans" that we were shown, and listened to a long and detailed explanation of what the new stadium would be like, and AT NO TIME was I told that it would NOT be fully cladded, in fact the cladding was stressed as being a major selling point, to emphasis just how different the whole structure would be from KR [RIP]. Give me the Hattons Stand anytime!!

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    Hit the nail on the head Gray.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    You're missing the point. You are obviously correct that those plans from 2009 were available to see if people knew they were there, and you are correct that they more or less match up with the reality of the completed stadium. The point you're missing is that that plan was NOT the one Saints showed to fans who rolled up to hand over their money for season tickets. If those plans had existed since 2009 and they were correct then why didn't Saints simply use them when showing fans what the stadium would be like? Why did they produce 3D plans that didn't actually match the reality of the completed stadium? When you are asking people for money and support (some for 5 years and a thousand quid) it is the most basic customer service to use the most accurate plans for the stadium they are asking people to pay to attend.

    The plans you saw are irrelevant, they are not the ones Saints publicised and they aren't the ones Saints used when asking for people's money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by saintlysid View Post
    Its you that needs to grow up and take a reality pill . If you took the trouble to check the plans prior to the build then I would suggest that your in the minority as the larger part of our support took the computer generated image as read. I have my own construction company, and and If I build a new pub I expect the brewery to check the plans but not the customers who are gonna sit in the bar and have a pint. Your talking bo..0x. If you dont think the reptutation of the saints management has been damaged by this stadium debacle and the way its been handled, then you need to take off your rose coloured spectacles because it certainly has.

    QUOTE=saint87;458449]Damaged the clubs reputation??? Grow up. Don't be so ridiculous.
    [/QUOTE]

    Ah right. So, because I am in the minority, my view doesn't count? I am awfully sorry for going online to see the design of the stadium.

    You will probably find that the pub customers would not check the plans because they couldn't care less what the pub looks like and what materials were used to build it. The same cannot be said of a stadium. This thread illustrates that. And you accuse me of talking bo..ox??? Ha ha. That has to be one of the most stupid points ever made on this forum!!!

    Regarding the reputation? We all have our own opinion. My opinion is that your opinion is wrong.

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    Your telling people they are talking nonsense and to grow up but its you thats talking out of your rear end.
    Why cant you just accept that the image presented of the ground fully cladded served to mislead fans. Your passing the responsibility onto fans for not reading plans when the responsibility is entirely the clubs as the image misrepresented what the ground was going to look like both on the web and in the local press.
    There are a lot of elderly fans in particular who would look at a set of plans and couldnt tell if they were upside down or back to front.
    They looked at a colour image of the ground in the local paper and thought " Ill have some of that" and toddled off to buy their tickets . End of.
    Their trust in the club for publishing an image of the ground which served to mislead has without doubt taken a knock.
    The clubs poor communication since has made this even worse.


    Quote Originally Posted by saint87 View Post
    You are talking utter nonsense again. You can talk about as many different plans as you like including this unpublished 'original plan' that wasn't submitted and wasn't put before the planning committee. The only plan that matters is the one that the club received permisson for in May 2008. This plan had the stadium with no cladding on. Hence why the club had to later submit another application for the additional cladding. The fact that you where not aware of any changes is no excuse.

    As for being clever, I wasn't the one bringing 'science' into it and claiming to be in the know about the 'construction game'.

    All I have done is point out a detailed stadium drawing that was published years ago and was available to the whole wide world. It was there for everybody to see way before the season tickets were even put on sale. It showed the stadium exactly as it is now (strange that isn't it). Now, for various reasons, people may not have seen it. But that is not my fault. I am simply pointing out that it was there. That is all I am saying. You cannot say that it wasn't.

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    You could of and by the sound of it one or two looked at the plans and think what ever you like as its irrelevant.

    The club filled up the north and west stands first and there were no other options at the time. Enough Good PR and smooze convinced the masses to get in to fill the stands they wanted us to be in(choice of 2). We were told south would hopefully be mostly corporate and more expensive. It's good business for saints as they offer better seats later to those that needed more convincing.
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