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Thread: The Big Match Live with Brian Moore

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reacher View Post
    Well thats the beauty of forums like this that can divide opinions. Liverpool raised the bar last season and we went beyond it. Ronaldo had a good season but nothing on the yr before when he scored 42. Rooney being played through the middle will score lots. A fit Hargreaves will also make a massive difference.
    Fergie seems to have a reluctance to play Rooney through the middle it seems. Time will tell if he does so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reacher View Post
    I am also not doubting the attraction of Madrid. They are a huge club with a proud history. I did the tour of the ground 2 yrs ago and its amazing to see and read their history. But I genuinely feel that if we were a couple of miles from their location, that we would attract just as many. Its not like we are a small club is it?
    Real are like a myth. There is a distinct atmosphere around everything with the club. Despite their shortcomings, they are the pinnacle of the beautiful game. United are a huge club but in all honesty its the last 15 years where their European record has started to take shape, this was set in stone by the likes of Real, Milan, Liverpool many years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reacher View Post
    As much as City may have the money and are building a side, it wont be able to attract the top stars who want immediate success, Kaka being a prime example. CL will probably be a bridge too far but I will wait until the season kicks off to see if we have made any more signings. I think we will have done.
    City will soon start attracting the top players with the stupid money they're throwing around and quite worryingly so as well IMO.

    I also think Utd will have made more signings as well, its the quality of them that is concerning. This summer seems to have cemented the superiority of the Spanish game and its more attractive qualities. The top players at Utd, Liverpool, Arsenal and Chelsea are being targeted and signed by the Spanish clubs, just at the same time that the economy makes the Premiership less powerful financially.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stirlingshire Saint View Post
    Fergie seems to have a reluctance to play Rooney through the middle it seems. Time will tell if he does so.



    Real are like a myth. There is a distinct atmosphere around everything with the club. Despite their shortcomings, they are the pinnacle of the beautiful game. United are a huge club but in all honesty its the last 15 years where their European record has started to take shape, this was set in stone by the likes of Real, Milan, Liverpool many years ago.



    City will soon start attracting the top players with the stupid money they're throwing around and quite worryingly so as well IMO.

    I also think Utd will have made more signings as well, its the quality of them that is concerning. This summer seems to have cemented the superiority of the Spanish game and its more attractive qualities. The top players at Utd, Liverpool, Arsenal and Chelsea are being targeted and signed by the Spanish clubs, just at the same time that the economy makes the Premiership less powerful financially.
    Although you are not a Utd fan you do make some valid points my friend.

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    Football , no thanks .......long live Rugby League

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    Quote Originally Posted by sweet View Post
    Football , no thanks .......long live Rugby League
    get off the football forum then

    "you dont need to win trophies to be successful..........."

    Sir Rafael Benitez

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stirlingshire Saint View Post
    Real are like a myth. There is a distinct atmosphere around everything with the club. Despite their shortcomings, they are the pinnacle of the beautiful game. United are a huge club but in all honesty its the last 15 years where their European record has started to take shape, this was set in stone by the likes of Real, Milan, Liverpool many years ago.
    .
    Was it not United who went into Europe AGAINST the wishes of the FA and became the first English club to win the European Cup
    The George for match day drinks and away coaches.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint Bert View Post
    Was it not United who went into Europe AGAINST the wishes of the FA and became the first English club to win the European Cup
    Maybe so but I was referring to a European tradition being cemented. The sides mentioned had a tradition with the European Cup cemented firmly well before the last few years in which Utd did so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stirlingshire Saint View Post
    Maybe so but I was referring to a European tradition being cemented. The sides mentioned had a tradition with the European Cup cemented firmly well before the last few years in which Utd did so.
    So Munich, Sir Matt Busby, first English side to win the title does not create a tradition/historic link to the competition...

    To add also, for those that speak francias, according to L'Equipe this morning United have signed Gabriel Obertan, 20 year old Winger from Bordeaux.
    The George for match day drinks and away coaches.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint Bert View Post
    So Munich, Sir Matt Busby, first English side to win the title does not create a tradition/historic link to the competition...

    To add also, for those that speak francias, according to L'Equipe this morning United have signed Gabriel Obertan, 20 year old Winger from Bordeaux.
    merci mon ami

    lol
    "you dont need to win trophies to be successful..........."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint Bert View Post
    Was it not United who went into Europe AGAINST the wishes of the FA and became the first English club to win the European Cup
    Chelsea were the team invited but declined, Matt Busby pleaded with the FA to let Man U. enter so the FA gave them permission.

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    Quote Originally Posted by amywinehouse View Post
    Chelsea were the team invited but declined, Matt Busby pleaded with the FA to let Man U. enter so the FA gave them permission.
    Chelsea should have entered in 1956 as Champions from 55 but under pressure from the football league they bottled it.

    In 1957 as champions from 56 United against the wishes of the FA and entered as Champions.

    lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint Bert View Post
    So Munich, Sir Matt Busby, first English side to win the title does not create a tradition/historic link to the competition...
    Not in particular, no.

    First English side to win it ? Not sure really, Celtic won it before you in terms of British winners and Tottenham were robbed of it in 1962, 6 years earlier than your first victory.

    The Munich disaster is huge to United fans but pretty much nobody else. I have sympathy for you but it doesn't strike a clear link of tradition in my mind.

    The main thing I was referring to is the multitude of times the competition has been won by the most successful sides such as Real, Milan and Liverpool and all being won much earlier than Utd have done so. The point was that it is the past 10 years or so where Utd have clearly established themselves as a Champions League force. These other sides did this much earlier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stirlingshire Saint View Post
    First English side to win it ? Not sure really
    I am, that puts us above Liverpool in the list, just like the league table for the past decade! LOL
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stirlingshire Saint View Post
    The Munich disaster is huge to United fans but pretty much nobody else. I have sympathy for you but it doesn't strike a clear link of tradition in my mind.
    As much as you have impressed me with some of your articulate posts, you have gone down in my estimation with that. How can it not have had an impact on football as a whole? The finest side of its generation cut down at its peak, losing men at the top of their game and in Duncan Edwards, potentially the finest British player ever to play the game.

    Have a look at the museum and read the history and see what impact it made all over the world. Its a huge reason as to why Utd are such a huge club with a worldwide following. I only have to speak to my Dad and my late Grandad god rest his soul to listen to how big the impact was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reacher View Post
    As much as you have impressed me with some of your articulate posts, you have gone down in my estimation with that. How can it not have had an impact on football as a whole? The finest side of its generation cut down at its peak, losing men at the top of their game and in Duncan Edwards, potentially the finest British player ever to play the game.

    Have a look at the museum and read the history and see what impact it made all over the world. Its a huge reason as to why Utd are such a huge club with a worldwide following. I only have to speak to my Dad and my late Grandad god rest his soul to listen to how big the impact was.
    No I think you misunderstood the context of the post. It was in reference to whether the Munich disaster forged a link of tradition with the European Cup. For me it didn't. Yes it was a tragic occurrance and cost England its finest players of the time and that kind of situation is never anything but a tragedy.

    I'm not sure it impacted across the world either, no more so than the plane crash that killed and robbed both Torino and Italy of some of their greatest ever talents previous to Munich. However, IMO Utd are only now beginning to forge a successful tradition in the European Cup as that can only come through winning it on a multitude of occasions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stirlingshire Saint View Post
    No I think you misunderstood the context of the post. It was in reference to whether the Munich disaster forged a link of tradition with the European Cup. For me it didn't. Yes it was a tragic occurrance and cost England its finest players of the time and that kind of situation is never anything but a tragedy.

    I'm not sure it impacted across the world either, no more so than the plane crash that killed and robbed both Torino and Italy of some of their greatest ever talents previous to Munich. However, IMO Utd are only now beginning to forge a successful tradition in the European Cup as that can only come through winning it on a multitude of occasions.
    Well again we will agree to disagree. I dont see Torino shirts all over the world or a fan base of over 100 million paying members. I know that Munich was not the only reason why Utd became so huge, there were of course other reasons, Best/Law/Charlton being other examples but I genuinely feel that Munich did have an impact world wide.

    I am guessing from the crux of your posts that you are a Liverpool fan? Whilst they have a long and proud history, I always consider that apart from the geographical distance making us rivals, Liverpool fans cannot stomach the fact that despite all their trophy laden years of the 70's and 80's that Utd were always perceived as the media darlings and the glamour club.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint Bert View Post
    I am, that puts us above Liverpool in the list, just like the league table for the past decade! LOL
    Liverpool have the history in Europe:-
    5 champions
    3 cup winners
    3 super cups. 11 trophies.

    Man.U.:-
    3 champions
    1 cup winners
    1 Super cup. 5 trophies.

    That to me puts Liverpool above Man. U.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reacher View Post
    Well again we will agree to disagree. I dont see Torino shirts all over the world or a fan base of over 100 million paying members. I know that Munich was not the only reason why Utd became so huge, there were of course other reasons, Best/Law/Charlton being other examples but I genuinely feel that Munich did have an impact world wide.
    I don't think the Munich disaster has anything to do with Utds worldwide fanbase. That is a fairly recent phenomenon and almost completely down to the marketing brilliance of Utd from the early 90's onwards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reacher View Post
    I am guessing from the crux of your posts that you are a Liverpool fan? Whilst they have a long and proud history, I always consider that apart from the geographical distance making us rivals, Liverpool fans cannot stomach the fact that despite all their trophy laden years of the 70's and 80's that Utd were always perceived as the media darlings and the glamour club.
    Liverpool ?!?!?!?! Nah mate, I'm a Tottenham fan (for my sins). Utd haven't always been considered the media darlings. These are things which switch between the successful sides of the day. I actually have a newspaper article from the early 60's describing Spurs as the 'millionarios' of English football and the 'Real Madrid' of Britain where all the top stars want to go and play and why was that ? Simply because we were a great side then. Thats it with Utd now, they're a great side, hence the media's adoration of them.

    I actually consider Liverpool and United fans to be very similar to be honest. Both can be unbelievably defensive despite their success and cannot take criticism whatsoever in general.

    Another point as well, I believe football to be ruined as a contest also. The games total fascination with money and business has created an environment where clubs cannot get anywhere without the millions of a rich chap who wants a hobby. The game needs a salary cap IMO to create competition.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stirlingshire Saint View Post
    I don't think the Munich disaster has anything to do with Utds worldwide fanbase. That is a fairly recent phenomenon and almost completely down to the marketing brilliance of Utd from the early 90's onwards. .
    I don't think any United fan would dispute that they acquired a large number of worldwide fans because of the disaster. Many fans of other clubs converted to being United fans that day.

    United were the best supported club in the country from the 1950s to the present day and still had more fans globally than probably any other club in the world, well before the 1990s. Modern day marketing has had little to do with that.

    To say their worldwide fan base is a recent phenomonen is way, way wide of the mark.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DD View Post
    I don't think any United fan would dispute that they acquired a large number of worldwide fans because of the disaster. Many fans of other clubs converted to being United fans that day.

    United were the best supported club in the country from the 1950s to the present day and still had more fans globally than probably any other club in the world, well before the 1990s. Modern day marketing has had little to do with that.

    To say their worldwide fan base is a recent phenomonen is way, way wide of the mark.
    It depends what you count as fanbase. Do you think the Asian population would have even heard of Manchester Utd in the 1960s ? Not a chance. This is what I was referring to with the modern day marketing, the far eastern market.

    They may have gained a sympathy vote and become a 'second team' but there is no way people stopped supporting who they did and changed because of the disaster. They wouldn't have gained huge support in Europe because of it either.

    I am also not convinced by your assertion that 'Utd were the best supported club in the country from the 1950s to the present day and still had more fans globally than probably any other club in the world, well before the 1990s' either. Is there any evidence for this ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DD View Post
    I don't think any United fan would dispute that they acquired a large number of worldwide fans because of the disaster. Many fans of other clubs converted to being United fans that day.

    United were the best supported club in the country from the 1950s to the present day and still had more fans globally than probably any other club in the world, well before the 1990s. Modern day marketing has had little to do with that.

    To say their worldwide fan base is a recent phenomonen is way, way wide of the mark.
    Probably summed up much better than I could and credit to you for putting your hatred to one side and posting such a rational comment.

    That is the point I am trying to make, that we had a huge following prior to the winning of trophies. I know that Munich was a massive factor and as you say, led to fans following Utd for the sympathy vote.

    You only have to look at the crowds we got in the 70's even after being relegated and then numbers that descended on away grounds to know that we have always been well supported.

    The 90's onwards has unfortunately led to bandwagon jumpers and kids supporting Utd just because they have been winning trophies and not because they respect the history of the club etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by amywinehouse View Post
    Liverpool have the history in Europe:-
    5 champions
    3 cup winners
    3 super cups. 11 trophies.

    Man.U.:-
    3 champions
    1 cup winners
    1 Super cup. 5 trophies.

    That to me puts Liverpool above Man. U.
    You missed out World Champions Twice, something which Liverpool have attemted 5 times and let Europe and the country down on each occassion!
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    just a story on the side.a mate of mine who lived in huyton at the time and is as scouse as they come was taken as a boy to watch liverpool by his father,who was a season ticket holder at anfield.they happened to be playing manchester united.tommy asked his father who a certain player was,george best was the reply.well i want to watch him play every week.
    from that day tommy has watched man u,put up with the jibes about being a scouser at old trafford and is united through and through.i dare say there are a few more like him.also uniteds support from ireland,especially the north has a lot to do with george best.
    people do have their own minds and can chose who they want to support without being steamrolled by a marketing machine

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    Quote Originally Posted by ploughman View Post
    just a story on the side.a mate of mine who lived in huyton at the time and is as scouse as they come was taken as a boy to watch liverpool by his father,who was a season ticket holder at anfield.they happened to be playing manchester united.tommy asked his father who a certain player was,george best was the reply.well i want to watch him play every week.
    from that day tommy has watched man u,put up with the jibes about being a scouser at old trafford and is united through and through.i dare say there are a few more like him.also uniteds support from ireland,especially the north has a lot to do with george best.
    people do have their own minds and can chose who they want to support without being steamrolled by a marketing machine
    Another good example. Some people only think that Utd existed post 90's when in actual fact the global appeal has been there for decades.

    My Dad is from Haydock and was the 3rd born of 4 brothers. His 2 older brothers supported Liverpool but because of Best/Law he went with Utd as a kid. There are lots of reasons as to why Utd gained all these fans and again my point is that Utd clearly had many many fans way before the 90's.

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reacher View Post
    Another good example. Some people only think that Utd existed post 90's when in actual fact the global appeal has been there for decades.

    My Dad is from Haydock and was the 3rd born of 4 brothers. His 2 older brothers supported Liverpool but because of Best/Law he went with Utd as a kid. There are lots of reasons as to why Utd gained all these fans and again my point is that Utd clearly had many many fans way before the 90's.
    Of course they had fans pre 1990, nobody is suggesting they didn't. The examples given are of people living within a 50 mile radius of Utd and choosing to support Man Utd. That not exactly proof a worldwide football appeal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stirlingshire Saint View Post
    Of course they had fans pre 1990, nobody is suggesting they didn't. The examples given are of people living within a 50 mile radius of Utd and choosing to support Man Utd. That not exactly proof a worldwide football appeal.
    Only because I have personal knowledge of these examples!! I can hardly talk about a 7yr old kid in Malaysia who followed Utd because of George Best can I as I am not party to that? But am sure that there are many examples of this.

    There will be sudden fans of Real Madrid now just because Ronaldo has signed for them. These will no doubt be lifelong fans now as a result.

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