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Thread: Youth...Who's gonna make it ??

  1. #26
    In The South Stand Noel Cleal's Avatar
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    I have liked the look of Jamie Foster since the per season game last year against Wakefield. He looked like a great runner and seemed to have great timing for his passing. He reminds me of a young Gary Connolly. Also he looks a natural goal kicker, an area we have historically been weak in.

    Gary Wheeler first came to my attention with a fantastic try at Headingley where he just stepped through the defense. I have been saying for a while he looks like a great player to play centre. Pace, skill and a great step!!

    Foster and Wheeler could be the future at centre for Saints.
    I could agree with you but then we would both be wrong.

  2. #27
    Got A Season Ticket saint hooper's Avatar
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    Heard a couple of names being branded about regarding the Saints youth:
    Jamie Foster, Martin Waring are ones to watch for the future

  3. #28
    In The South Stand Legolas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thistownneedsastadium View Post
    No, no, no.

    We must get behind the side at all times. I particularly like your idea of there only being criticism after the match. It's going to be interesting after a disappointing defeat when loads of us stay behind in the cold and dark at the ground and debate where things went wrong.
    So in other words, you will support the team when winning and not support it as much when its losing?? That is what you are saying. What I said was perfectly sensible. If you want to treat the promising youngsters in a way which will knock their confidence after one, two or three mistakes, go right ahead, just don't then moan when another promising players falls by the wayside because of some of the more arrogant sections of our support who expect the earth on debut day and the team win bugger all.

    What is so revolutionary about saving criticism until after the final hooter and getting 100% behind the lads for the 80minutes. People already say KR is fairly quiet, perhaps its time to turn up the volume.

    And where did I suggest fans staying behind after the match??

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManchesterSaint View Post
    So in other words, you will support the team when winning and not support it as much when its losing?? That is what you are saying. What I said was perfectly sensible. If you want to treat the promising youngsters in a way which will knock their confidence after one, two or three mistakes, go right ahead, just don't then moan when another promising players falls by the wayside because of some of the more arrogant sections of our support who expect the earth on debut day and the team win bugger all.

    What is so revolutionary about saving criticism until after the final hooter and getting 100% behind the lads for the 80minutes. People already say KR is fairly quiet, perhaps its time to turn up the volume.

    And where did I suggest fans staying behind after the match??

    Let's be honest, in an ideal world your idea would work, but when players make a mistake the fans are disappointed and it's very hard to not let that be shown. You say that people hold their breath when a high kick goes Meli's way, don't you think the rest of the team do?????

    What shouldn't happen is fans targetting a player with sarcastic cheers if (In Meli's case) he takes the catch. This is something as a Wigan fan we haven't had since Dennis Moran left and I for one am glad.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManchesterSaint View Post
    So in other words, you will support the team when winning and not support it as much when its losing?? That is what you are saying. What I said was perfectly sensible. If you want to treat the promising youngsters in a way which will knock their confidence after one, two or three mistakes, go right ahead, just don't then moan when another promising players falls by the wayside because of some of the more arrogant sections of our support who expect the earth on debut day and the team win bugger all.

    What is so revolutionary about saving criticism until after the final hooter and getting 100% behind the lads for the 80minutes. People already say KR is fairly quiet, perhaps its time to turn up the volume.

    And where did I suggest fans staying behind after the match??
    Sigh.

    I will stop with the sarcasm now. My view is that criticism for the sake of it is wrong but people pay good money to come and watch Saints and are entitled to express their opinion vocally during the match as long as it's not too offensive etc. Generally, most people do get behind the side but are quite within their right to express their displeasure at a mistake etc.

    That, in my opinion, does not make them any less a supporter of the side.

  6. #31
    In The South Stand Legolas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thistownneedsastadium View Post
    Sigh.

    I will stop with the sarcasm now. My view is that criticism for the sake of it is wrong but people pay good money to come and watch Saints and are entitled to express their opinion vocally during the match as long as it's not too offensive etc. Generally, most people do get behind the side but are quite within their right to express their displeasure at a mistake etc.

    That, in my opinion, does not make them any less a supporter of the side.
    I am not saying people aren't entitled to show their displeasure. But if you come over to my vantage point, every time a ball goes up and towards Meli, we can all hear the popular side hold their breath. It could be the first minute of the first game which he goes onto play a blinder, or the last minute of the last game when he has played a blinder, it still happens. If this happens to one of the kids, their confidence will be shot before they start

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    Quote Originally Posted by ManchesterSaint View Post
    I am not saying people aren't entitled to show their displeasure. But if you come over to my vantage point, every time a ball goes up and towards Meli, we can all hear the popular side hold their breath. It could be the first minute of the first game which he goes onto play a blinder, or the last minute of the last game when he has played a blinder, it still happens. If this happens to one of the kids, their confidence will be shot before they start
    Speaking personally, I am a bit more apt to give the younger, less experienced players more of a chance. Meli is an experienced international and that's possibly one of the reasons fans get frustrated with his efforts at times.

    One of my mates is possibly the most critical supporter you could ever meet but he says at the start of every season that every player should start with a clean slate, easier said than done.

  8. #33
    In The South Stand retro74's Avatar
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    Back on topic, Matty Ashurst looked decent when I watched them play. Ran good lines and looked pretty solid.

  9. #34
    In The South Stand peter soutos tash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Houghwood Saint View Post
    the talk in Billinge is that Lomax will be the next great thing from the academy but maybe thats because he is local and his dad frequents the local pub.
    lomax is quality as is wheeler
    also look out for magennis and dixon

  10. #35
    In The South Stand peter soutos tash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Houghwood Saint View Post
    the talk in Billinge is that Lomax will be the next great thing from the academy but maybe thats because he is local and his dad frequents the local pub.
    actually if i remember correctly his dad is a good coach
    and coached orrell side including jonny
    that was largely unbeaten for many years

  11. #36
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    I seem to remember DA saying " When you play kids you have to accept mistakes it is how they react determines if they will make it or not"

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    In The West Stand Sausalito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommy blue View Post
    I seem to remember DA saying " When you play kids you have to accept mistakes it is how they react determines if they will make it or not"
    DA.Never spoke a truer word

  13. #38
    In The South Stand Noel Cleal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommy blue View Post
    I seem to remember DA saying " When you play kids you have to accept mistakes it is how they react determines if they will make it or not"
    Good job the league does not really matter next season with the top 8 playoff. We will be able to break them in knowing a couple of loses will not be the end of the world.

    No one has mensioned Ellis and Armstrong. Does anyone know anything about them.
    I could agree with you but then we would both be wrong.

  14. #39
    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk DD's Avatar
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    It's a strange thing but those trumped up as superstars at youth level very rarely become so. Those that are less heralded sometimes end up becoming much better players.

    In a way, it can work against a kid because they can get ideas above their station or, more often, too much burden of expectation is placed upon them and they eventually wilt away under the pressure.

    The likes of Wellens and Roby arrived in the first team with few having heard of them and they have become Saints greats whilst players like McAtee, O'Brien, Johnson and latterly Tyrer were trumped up to be international stars in the making yet didn't/don't look like being anything above the ordinary (if that good).

    There is a school of thought that says everyone has a peak compared to their contemporary peers. Some peak against their peers as time goes by, others reach that peak when they are kids due to an early growth spurt or something of that ilk and when others bulk out to meet them, you realise it was their early size and power that made them stand out more than any extra special talent.

    In my book, it's best if we stop loading players with any burden of expectation because, when we do, they rarely turn out to be anything bar a bit of a disappointment to you, despite being good players, because we saddled them with a pedestal they could never possibly climb upon.
    THIS YEAR LENDING SUPPORT TO:- St. Helens RLFC, Manchester City, Celtic, Alemannia Aachen, Steps 1 to 6 Non-League Football

  15. #40
    In The South Stand Noel Cleal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DD View Post
    It's a strange thing but those trumped up as superstars at youth level very rarely become so. Those that are less heralded sometimes end up becoming much better players.

    In a way, it can work against a kid because they can get ideas above their station or, more often, too much burden of expectation is placed upon them and they eventually wilt away under the pressure.

    The likes of Wellens and Roby arrived in the first team with few having heard of them and they have become Saints greats whilst players like McAtee, O'Brien, Johnson and latterly Tyrer were trumped up to be international stars in the making yet didn't/don't look like being anything above the ordinary (if that good).

    There is a school of thought that says everyone has a peak compared to their contemporary peers. Some peak against their peers as time goes by, others reach that peak when they are kids due to an early growth spurt or something of that ilk and when others bulk out to meet them, you realise it was their early size and power that made them stand out more than any extra special talent.

    In my book, it's best if we stop loading players with any burden of expectation because, when we do, they rarely turn out to be anything bar a bit of a disappointment to you, despite being good players, because we saddled them with a pedestal they could never possibly climb upon.
    A valid point but I think a lot of good players failing is down to poor coaching and lack of game time. Players like Roby and Gardner were given a lot of time to settle into the side. Other players have been given high billing but not the chance or the correct coaching. I think Steve Tyrer would be a great player if someone would coach him to tackle.
    I could agree with you but then we would both be wrong.

  16. #41
    In The South Stand peter soutos tash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noel Cleal View Post
    A valid point but I think a lot of good players failing is down to poor coaching and lack of game time. Players like Roby and Gardner were given a lot of time to settle into the side. Other players have been given high billing but not the chance or the correct coaching. I think Steve Tyrer would be a great player if someone would coach him to tackle.
    you cant coach tackling at his age
    it needs to be done at 7-10 years
    you can improve it but.....
    if he cant tackle he cant tackle

  17. #42
    In The South Stand Noel Cleal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter soutos tash View Post
    you cant coach tackling at his age
    it needs to be done at 7-10 years
    you can improve it but.....
    if he cant tackle he cant tackle
    7 or 17 I still think it is down to coaching. Tackling has never seemed to be a "natural ability" all good defenders are coached to be that way. Tyrer is very raw as he split his youth between his goalkeeping and his Rugby. I think if someone would give Tyrer some skills coaching his tackling could improve greatly. John Dixon is a good coach, maybe Tyrer will come back as a much better player.
    I could agree with you but then we would both be wrong.

  18. #43
    In The South Stand peter soutos tash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noel Cleal View Post
    7 or 17 I still think it is down to coaching. Tackling has never seemed to be a "natural ability" all good defenders are coached to be that way. Tyrer is very raw as he split his youth between his goalkeeping and his Rugby. I think if someone would give Tyrer some skills coaching his tackling could improve greatly. John Dixon is a good coach, maybe Tyrer will come back as a much better player.
    john dixon is a great coach
    however tyrer wont come back
    and will never be in talau's class
    no matter how much tackling coaching he has

  19. #44
    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk DD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noel Cleal View Post
    I think Steve Tyrer would be a great player if someone would coach him to tackle.
    To be fair though, I am sure he has been because if we can notice this deficiency, so will all of the coaching staff.

    Whether he has the ability to learn from that coaching is a very different matter.
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  20. #45
    In The West Stand Sausalito's Avatar
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    Some of the greatest tacklers in the game never had a tackling coach, to name a few who played for Saints:- Greenall, Karalius, Briggs, Rhodes, Mc Ginn, Mantle.

    It's whats in your chest 'HEART.'

    Local Thatto Heath lad played for Blackpool Borough Jack O'Brien, like a mowing machine.
    Some people have a heart like a Cabbage others like a Brussel Sprout.

  21. #46
    Learning All The Songs Billinge Lump's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter soutos tash View Post
    you cant coach tackling at his age
    it needs to be done at 7-10 years
    you can improve it but.....
    if he cant tackle he cant tackle
    You can't coach tackling after the age of ten? That's tripe.

    What about players who only come into the game later on at 12, 13 and older?

    You can coach tackling at any age, whether or not that player learns that coaching is another matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by amywinehouse
    Some of the greatest tacklers in the game never had a tackling coach, to name a few who played for Saints:- Greenall, Karalius, Briggs, Rhodes, Mc Ginn, Mantle.
    They never had a coach? How did they learn the game? They just picked up a ball and knew what to do?

    I do agree that a lot of it is heart though, whether Tyrer has the balls (comparable to his fellow pros before anyone gets on their high horse) to get into the hard stuff that good defence requires is something he has to prove.
    I'm too pretty to be unlucky

  22. #47
    In The South Stand Noel Cleal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amywinehouse View Post
    Some of the greatest tacklers in the game never had a tackling coach, to name a few who played for Saints:- Greenall, Karalius, Briggs, Rhodes, Mc Ginn, Mantle.

    It's whats in your chest 'HEART.'

    Local Thatto Heath lad played for Blackpool Borough Jack O'Brien, like a mowing machine.
    Some people have a heart like a Cabbage others like a Brussel Sprout.
    Rugby League defensive coaches have revolutionised Rugby Union. England won the world cup because they hired Phil Larder to teach them to tackle and they were all 40!!!!

    On the basis of that i am sure there is more to it than just effort. I agree with DD that different player are able to learn how to tackle more than others.

    Now stop talking about veg.
    I could agree with you but then we would both be wrong.

  23. #48
    In The West Stand Sausalito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noel Cleal View Post
    Rugby League defensive coaches have revolutionised Rugby Union. England won the world cup because they hired Phil Larder to teach them to tackle and they were all 40!!!!

    On the basis of that i am sure there is more to it than just effort. I agree with DD that different player are able to learn how to tackle more than others.

    Now stop talking about veg.
    Looks like England took notice, record scores against no matter who they play, so they haven't learned anything.

    Also Rl scores now higher than at anytime in the games history

    I still stick to what i said it's Heart. Some people are timid others are not.

    Oh! Larder was there to teach them defensive patterns, not how to tackle.

  24. #49
    In The South Stand peter soutos tash's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Billinge Lump;183097]You can't coach tackling after the age of ten? That's tripe.
    rubbish....... come and watch our under tens

    What about players who only come into the game later on at 12, 13 and older?
    cant coach them if they arent there
    You can coach tackling at any age, whether or not that player learns that coaching is another matter.
    you can improve tackling at any age not coach
    its all about the nerve and heart to do the tackling


  25. #50
    In The South Stand peter soutos tash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noel Cleal View Post
    Rugby League defensive coaches have revolutionised Rugby Union. England won the world cup because they hired Phil Larder to teach them to tackle and they were all 40!!!!

    On the basis of that i am sure there is more to it than just effort. I agree with DD that different player are able to learn how to tackle more than others.

    Now stop talking about veg.
    different game and they weren't 40

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