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tongey
14th December 2007, 19:04
Heard from a very good source that Roby has been offered over 200k a year by 4 Aussie clubs. Not sure which clubs. Anyone else heard this

undercover
14th December 2007, 19:10
Heard from a very good source that Roby has been offered over 200k a year by 4 Aussie clubs. Not sure which clubs. Anyone else heard this
no and its bollox

Div
14th December 2007, 19:25
Its Off not Of. ;) :D

tongey
14th December 2007, 19:26
Its Off not Of. ;) :D

sorry

Div
14th December 2007, 19:29
sorry


So you should be. :D

Woodspeckie
14th December 2007, 19:52
What an f between friends.

Trev The Bear
14th December 2007, 20:33
$200k AUS - Thats about £100 quid a week isn't it?

Doubt he'll go for that ;)

bazdev
14th December 2007, 22:17
The offers are there but he is staying

Supersaint
15th December 2007, 01:42
I'm confident he will stay a Saint!!!

Shakespeare
15th December 2007, 02:24
I'm confident he will stay a Saint!!!

Illawara? Northampton?

Knight Shadow
15th December 2007, 11:01
why would he go? all the ozzeys do is slate are game so why should one of are best talents go down under to be slated?

Div
15th December 2007, 11:35
why would he go? all the ozzeys do is slate are game so why should one of are best talents go down under to be slated?


Slate the game ? Its THE sport in 2/5 states .

Why would he go ? - Possibly to prove himself in the best league in the world and maybe to experience life in a different country with nicer weather/ less crime, etc. Loads of other possible reasons.

St Michael
15th December 2007, 11:41
why would he go? all the ozzeys do is slate are game so why should one of are best talents go down under to be slated?

Some smart looking kangaroos over there.

You don't see many of them in St Helens.:p

Cedarman
15th December 2007, 12:35
Slate the game ? Its THE sport in 2/5 states .

Why woudl he go ? - Possibly to prove himself in the best league in teh world and maybe to experience life in a different country with nicer weather/ less crime, etc. Loads of other possible reasons.


yeah! ......................but besides that !!lol

Barbarian
15th December 2007, 13:07
Slate the game ? Its THE sport in 2/5 states .

Why woudl he go ? - Possibly to prove himself in the best league in teh world and maybe to experience life in a different country with nicer weather/ less crime, etc. Loads of other possible reasons.


Do you have proof that theres less crime?

Knight Shadow
15th December 2007, 13:34
Slate the game ? Its THE sport in 2/5 states .

Why woudl he go ? - Possibly to prove himself in the best league in teh world and maybe to experience life in a different country with nicer weather/ less crime, etc. Loads of other possible reasons.

i would disagree as are league is faster than there's at the top, the only difference is that they have 10 clubs that are high quality we have 5 with a few other clubs getting close. as for best SL vs best NRL i think the world club challenge speaks for it's self

SaintJon
15th December 2007, 13:41
maybe to experience life in a different country with nicer weather/ less crime, etc.

do you not know the reason why we sent them all over there in the first place?? lol lol

the_messiah_saint
15th December 2007, 15:29
Mr Roby has penned a new 3 year contract for saints and has refused offers from down under and an offer from Wigan aswell!

Gray77
15th December 2007, 15:34
i would disagree as are league is faster than there's at the top, the only difference is that they have 10 clubs that are high quality we have 5 with a few other clubs getting close. as for best SL vs best NRL i think the world club challenge speaks for it's self

The difference is that they have a different champion most years. Every year there are 5 or 6 teams who can realistically win the title. I know Melbourne have finished top and reached the GF the last 2 years but they have been a super strong team for that period and that cant last with the NRL's stupidly small salary cap. That's where the plusses and minuses of playing in the NRL for Roby should come into play. Does he want to play competitive matches every week at a high level with no real guarantee of any success, or does he want to stay here and be in a top 3 team competing for the silver most years but with less big time, tight competitive games regularly. Personally I think Roby is a bit young to go down there right now. A bad season would destroy his confidence and he's in no rush. Give it a few more seasons and I think he'd be stupid not to give it a go if the right offer from a big club came along, as much as that pains me to say speaking from a Saints standpoint.

Oh, and Div, the guy earlier on who said the Aussies slate our game, I think he meant they slate the British game and not the game in general.

Div
15th December 2007, 15:53
Do you have proof that theres less crime?



No , but it not hard to imagine is it ?

Dynamite Don Brennan
15th December 2007, 16:30
No , but it not hard to imagine is it ?

Well yea,seeing as theyre all convicts;)

Paul Cullen's Mantra
15th December 2007, 16:47
Well yea,seeing as theyre all convicts;)


Read and broaden your opinions, my friend:-

bebrave.org.uk/Stereotyping.html

Dynamite Don Brennan
15th December 2007, 16:49
Read and broaden your opinions, my friend:-

bebrave.org.uk/Stereotyping.html


Take it you didnt notice the;)

Paul Cullen's Mantra
15th December 2007, 17:00
Take it you didnt notice the;)


Sorry, I missed the apostrophe between,"they", and "re", also....

Dynamite Don Brennan
15th December 2007, 17:16
Sorry, I missed the apostrophe between,"they", and "re", also....

Jeez another smart@rse, okay your really clever and funny with it.
There, feel better.
Feel free to punctuate for me.

knowsleyroader
15th December 2007, 19:07
Do you have proof that theres less crime?

I have proof...

While you were reading this, ive just taken you wallet, dvd recorder ( nice model btw ), had a dump on your lawn, set fire to your cat and posted your email addy on a gay website.

Only top quality crime around these parts son. ;)

Paul Cullen's Mantra
15th December 2007, 19:12
I have proof...

While you were reading this, ive just taken you wallet, dvd recorder ( nice model btw ), had a dump on your lawn, set fire to your cat and posted your email addy on a gay website.

Only top quality crime around these parts son. ;)


.....And when you return home with your booty, switch on the lights, you too will be another statistic....lol lol lol lol

The Greatest
16th December 2007, 10:02
Do you have proof that theres less crime?

who need proof hey?

Everyone knows we all live in a lawless society, murders on everyones street everyday. Cars turned upside down and burning everywhere you look. Its plain for all to see. :D

Div
16th December 2007, 10:10
who need proof hey?

Everyone knows we all live in a lawless society, murders on everyones street everyday. Cars turned upside down and burning everywhere you look. Its plain for all to see. :D


If you watch some of the documentaries on TV you will see parts of this country ARE pretty lawless with absoluely no respect for the police/courts.

The country is a time bomb.

The Greatest
16th December 2007, 10:24
If you watch some of the documentaries on TV you will see parts of this country ARE pretty lawless with absoluely no respect for the police/courts.

The country is a time bomb.

These documentaries are dedicated to finding the worst areas. People then watch them and have the perception that our whole country is like this when in fact it isnt. People simply do not realise how good of a country we live in.

Just a quick edit now.

Highest rate of car theft in the world.....Aus
Highest rate of burglary in the world.....Aus

Higher rate of rape (3rd in the world) .....Aus (UK miles down the list)

Higher rate of murder ......Aus

Higher rate of manslaughter......Aus.

Yup, a crime free paradise unlike our lawless society that we live in.

Trev The Bear
16th December 2007, 11:24
Where are those figures from?link?

Are those figures proportionate to populations between countries?

daves
16th December 2007, 17:53
If you watch some of the documentaries on TV you will see parts of this country ARE pretty lawless with absoluely no respect for the police/courts.

The country is a time bomb.

You're wasting your time Div.

As long as people do as the proverbial ostrich does then this country will continue to slide down into the abyss.To those people I will say just one thing:

When I lie in the box,the curtain comes down and the light goes out,it will be a far worse country I leave than the one I came into.

Greengrass
16th December 2007, 18:33
You're wasting your time Div.

As long as people do as the proverbial ostrich does then this country will continue to slide down into the abyss.To those people I will say just one thing:

When I lie in the box,the curtain comes down and the light goes out,it will be a far worse country I leave than the one I came into.


Too right! there are certain people on here that antagonise people by arguing with every post. But even they can't argue that this country is going down the shi77er faster than a faggot at a ar5e kissing contest.

Reacher
16th December 2007, 18:48
I just love how every thread seems to go off topic very quickly. We should be talking about him as a player, as an individual and what Saints can offer him, not comparing crime figures. Yes thats concerned with Australia as a country but for me we are veering off topic yet again.

Paul Cullen's Mantra
16th December 2007, 18:53
Too right! there are certain people on here that antagonise people by arguing with every post. But even they can't argue that this country is going down the shi77er faster than a faggot at a ar5e kissing contest.



You cannot fail to be amazed by the paradox of this country. We must be doing some thing right as so many people are attracted to this country from overseas. Since legislation was passed to allow "foreigners", to come over here and work we have been flooded with migrant workers. These workers often do work that we in this country don't want ie low paid, unsociable hours, and invariably the native,"Britain", finds claiming benefits much more rewarding than going out to work in such roles. We are a nation of whingers, who love to wallow in self-pity and are always hard done-by.
If we had half the energy and drive of the migrant workers who ligimately come over here to work, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Oh, yes, who invited immigrants over here in the first place?....yes, we did, because we couldn't find anyone to fill the unskilled roles which were in abundance at that time. Thus, if you want to whinge and criticise then look no further than our arrogant, indifferent selves.

The Greatest
16th December 2007, 20:04
I just love how every thread seems to go off topic very quickly. We should be talking about him as a player, as an individual and what Saints can offer him, not comparing crime figures. Yes thats concerned with Australia as a country but for me we are veering off topic yet again.

Topics and debates develop. One such development was the speculation that Aus could offer Roby better things due to numerous reasons. Most of those reasons that Div pointed out were right. One was not which I pointed out with a perfectly legitimate point.

Roby may move to Aus to challenge himself. To make him a better player. To get a better quaity of life. To live in nicer weather. However he wont be going somewhere that is better in crime terms.

The Greatest
16th December 2007, 20:05
You're wasting your time Div.

As long as people do as the proverbial ostrich does then this country will continue to slide down into the abyss..

:D

The irony of this is not lost on me. Even after I have provided details about Aus being worsae for crime heads are still being buried in the sand.

The Greatest
16th December 2007, 20:11
Where are those figures from?link?

Are those figures proportionate to populations between countries?

Aye, they are factored for population size as they should be.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_bur_percap-crime-burglaries-per-capita

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_car_the_percap-crime-car-thefts-per-capita

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_man_percap-crime-manslaughters-per-capita

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita

In general, we have more crime in the violent / assault / robbery kind of way and more total crime but the Aussies are worse for the serious crimes.

Paul Cullen's Mantra
16th December 2007, 20:21
Aye, they are factored for population size as they should be.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_bur_percap-crime-burglaries-per-capita

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_car_the_percap-crime-car-thefts-per-capita

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_man_percap-crime-manslaughters-per-capita

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita

In general, we have more crime in the violent / assault / robbery kind of way and more total crime but the Aussies are worse for the serious crimes.


So assault/robbery are NOT serious crimes???:???: :???:

The Greatest
16th December 2007, 20:22
So assault/robbery are NOT serious crimes???:???: :???:

Not in the same league as murder, rape and manslaughter are they? When I mean serious I mean crimes that carry the big punishments!!!

Paul Cullen's Mantra
16th December 2007, 20:24
Not in the same league as murder, rape and manslaughter are they? When I mean serious I mean crimes that carry the big punishments!!!


Are there any crimes that carry severe punishments these days?

RedVee Admin
16th December 2007, 20:32
High Treason.

The Greatest
16th December 2007, 20:34
lol

oi, keep it on topic admin bloke

Div
16th December 2007, 20:50
Not in the same league as murder, rape and manslaughter are they? When I mean serious I mean crimes that carry the big punishments!!!


Maybe but I suspect those crimes are pretty rare either way.

The MAJORITY of folk will be most affected by burglary, robbery, assault, theft and vandalism.

Div
16th December 2007, 20:51
You cannot fail to be amazed by the paradox of this country. We must be doing some thing right as so many people are attracted to this country from overseas. Since legislation was passed to allow "foreigners", to come over here and work we have been flooded with migrant workers. These workers often do work that we in this country don't want ie low paid, unsociable hours, and invariably the native,"Britain", finds claiming benefits much more rewarding than going out to work in such roles. We are a nation of whingers, who love to wallow in self-pity and are always hard done-by.
If we had half the energy and drive of the migrant workers who ligimately come over here to work, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Oh, yes, who invited immigrants over here in the first place?....yes, we did, because we couldn't find anyone to fill the unskilled roles which were in abundance at that time. Thus, if you want to whinge and criticise then look no further than our arrogant, indifferent selves.




No link ?;) lol



Actually this country would be fantastic if any political party had the balls to deal with crime head on. Build plenty of new prisons with little facilities and long sentences. take all the scum out of circulation and the rest of us can work and play and enjoy a great standard of living.

Paul Cullen's Mantra
16th December 2007, 20:55
No link ?;) lol



Actually this country would be fantastic if any political party had the balls to deal with crime head on. Build plenty of new prisons with little facilities and long sentences. take all the scum out of circulation and the rest of us can work and play and enjoy a great standard of living.


Wake up and smell the coffeelol lol

Div
16th December 2007, 21:01
Wake up and smell the coffeelol lol


Sorry ? Not with you .

The Greatest
16th December 2007, 21:11
Maybe but I suspect those crimes are pretty rare either way.

The MAJORITY of folk will be most affected by burglary, robbery, assault, theft and vandalism.

Aye, its a fair point. I'd still say its pretty level between the two though. Burgalry and car theft are still worse in Aus and affect the majority of people much like our favourite past-times of assault and vandalism :)

Dont get me wrong, I dont think our country is a crime free haven its just that we tend to under rate our country and over rate other countries. When you think of here you think of the negative documentaries that you see. When you think of Aus you remember watching 'a place in the sun' where everyone has swimming pools and has nice communal barbecue areas. Real life in both countries is different.

Paul Cullen's Mantra
16th December 2007, 21:50
Sorry ? Not with you .


In this age of political correctness severe punishments are not an option for vote-grabbing politicians. Instead we have to put up with namby-pamby do-gooders who insist on corrective and constructive punishments, which do little to deter the habitual criminal and foster an environment where the word deterrant is but a joke.

The Greatest
16th December 2007, 21:53
In this age of political correctness severe punishments are not an option for vote-grabbing politicians. Instead we have to put up with namby-pamby do-gooders who insist on corrective and constructive punishments, which do little to deter the habitual criminal and foster an environment where the word deterrant is but a joke.

I agree.

We should be like the US. That will erradicate all crime like it does there. :D

Paul Cullen's Mantra
16th December 2007, 21:56
I agree.

We should be like the US. That will erradicate all crime like it does there. :D


There is only one solution:-www.imdb.com/gallery/ss/0088247/Terminator_PUB04.jpg.html?seq=5

Red_V_Roger
16th December 2007, 22:49
Back on topic then...

I was having a chat with Roby in KFC on the Milperra Road, Revesby yesterday....and he said that he's only out here for a few weeks just having a look round. He quite likes the idea of playing for St George, but it would be good to meet up with Lyon again in Manly.

I've arranged to meet up with him at the Rolf Harris Arms in Sydney CBD tonight for a few pints, so I'll keep you updated.

Div
16th December 2007, 22:55
In this age of political correctness severe punishments are not an option for vote-grabbing politicians. Instead we have to put up with namby-pamby do-gooders who insist on corrective and constructive punishments, which do little to deter the habitual criminal and foster an environment where the word deterrant is but a joke.



If its about vote grabbing I suggest doing what the majority of the public want would be beneficial. They talk tough and act soft.

Red_V_Roger
16th December 2007, 22:57
If its about vote grabbing I suggest doing what the majority of the public want would be beneficial. They talk tough and act soft.

Please don't do like 200 years ago and send them to Oz. There's enough demand for rental property as it is!

The Greatest
16th December 2007, 22:57
If its about vote grabbing I suggest doing what the majority of the public want would be beneficial. They talk tough and act soft.

So why would acting tough work? If it does then why doesnt it work in the US?

Div
17th December 2007, 09:48
So why would acting tough work? If it does then why doesnt it work in the US?


Pretty simple , you take them out of circulation and they cannot commit more crime. Conditional Dischages, Community Service and short sentences which are just seen as an occupational hazzard simply means its business as usual.


Why quote the US, there are countries you could have quoted where it does seem to work ? For one thing the gun laws in the US means its a completely different ball game I would suggest along with the deep routed gang culture.

Paul Cullen's Mantra
17th December 2007, 10:00
Pretty simple , you take them out of circulation and they cannot commit more crime. Conditional Dischages, Community Service and short sentences which are just seen as an occupational hazzard simply means its business as usual.


Why quote the US, there are countries you could have quoted where it does seem to work ? For one thing the gun laws in the US means its a completely different ball game I would suggest along with the deep routed gang culture.


If we are to commit people for longer periods of time then we need to address the problem of overcrowding. This can only be remedied with reference to building a greater number of prisons.....and how will this be financed?, through the tax payer, not a popular political move I fear, and therein lies the problem of incarceration for long periods.

Saint Bert
17th December 2007, 10:00
I dont think our country is a crime free haven its just that we tend to under rate our country and over rate other countries. When you think of here you think of the negative documentaries that you see.

If you lived in the town cnetre of St Helens mate you would son change your mind.

If I could talk the Mrs into it and be sure of getting work, I'd be off tomorow!

Paul Cullen's Mantra
17th December 2007, 10:05
If you lived in the town cnetre of St Helens mate you would son change your mind.

If I could talk the Mrs into it and be sure of getting work, I'd be off tomorow!


It is all relative. Would you consider yourself safer where you are or in deprived area of an inner city? Crime is everywhere, you cannot escape from it, unfortunately, it has become acceptable for crime to occur and it is looked upon as an inevitability by today's political leaders.

Div
17th December 2007, 10:14
If we are to commit people for longer periods of time then we need to address the problem of overcrowding. This can only be remedied with reference to building a greater number of prisons.....and how will this be financed?, through the tax payer, not a popular political move I fear, and therein lies the problem of incarceration for long periods.


Who is worried about overcrowding ? Not me pack them in for all I care its isnt supposed to be a pleasant experience thats half the problem.

I reckon most tax payers would be happy to pay an extra penny to fund the builds if it meant the streets were safer - The government can always re-jiggle the purse strings anyway - think of the billions being poured into Iraq and Afghanistan.

There would be savings in other directions anyway - peoples insurance premiums would drop as a result for one with less claims.

Sadfish
17th December 2007, 10:21
It is all relative. Would you consider yourself safer where you are or in deprived area of an inner city? Crime is everywhere, you cannot escape from it, unfortunately, it has become acceptable for crime to occur and it is looked upon as an inevitability by today's political leaders.

I moved from Newton to Southport recently the differences in the crime level immense, in fact, the amount of times I hear a police or ambulance or fire engince siren is neglible compared to where I used to live it was ever night something was going on.

Generally the worst thing that happens in Southport is drugs issues, I know people complain abotu the purple rinse brigade in Southport but it's certainly quieter than Newton and much quieter than St Helens.

There aer plenty of places in the UK that aren't like St Helens for crime, you dont have to travel to the ends of the earth to find a quieter way of life.

knowsleyroader
17th December 2007, 10:43
The problem of overcrowding is a simple enough issue to solve.

Set fire to the people that will constantly re offend and make peoples lives a misery for as long as they live. I am not joking by the way and yes I would pour on the petrol and strike the match.

P.S btw Roby IS leaving, spoke to him last night in " The Bell & End ". He said he hates Saints, its boring.

mike
17th December 2007, 11:01
The evidence shows that the worse prisoners are treated, the worse the reoffending rates. But I accept that we need solutions because there are a hard core of folk who just think they can do what they want with impunity.
That said I do think a lot of the problems in today's Britain have their roots in the 'no such thing as society', 'me, me, me, me and sod everybody else' attitudes of the 80s.
We need a combination of more community spirit and stronger discipline in the home to stop the next generation of criminals before they fall by the wayside.

Saint Bert
17th December 2007, 11:12
The evidence shows that the worse prisoners are treated, the worse the reoffending rates. But I accept that we need solutions because there are a hard core of folk who just think they can do what they want with impunity.
That said I do think a lot of the problems in today's Britain have their roots in the 'no such thing as society', 'me, me, me, me and sod everybody else' attitudes of the 80s.
We need a combination of more community spirit and stronger discipline in the home to stop the next generation of criminals before they fall by the wayside.

It's too late, spend a couple of hours walking around town during the day, it's frightening the dregs of society that are mooching about. To see some of these young children being dragged around town by the chavs and chavettes who have no intention of contributing anything to society makes you feel sorry for their future but at the same time leaves you with a feeling of dispair that those kids will grow up thinking that their parents way of life is the way to live, and they will become as bad if not worse in 15 years time.

Div
17th December 2007, 11:17
The evidence shows that the worse prisoners are treated, the worse the reoffending rates.


Only if you let them out.

Paul Cullen's Mantra
17th December 2007, 11:22
Only if you let them out.


Do you think you pay too much tax already?.....If you keep prisoners locked up indefinitely who is going to foot the bill?....yours, truly

Div
17th December 2007, 11:28
Do you think you pay too much tax already?.....If you keep prisoners locked up indefinitely who is going to foot the bill?....yours, truly



You need to think of the bigger picture.

How much is " the bill " for crime ? Who is paying that now ?

Its the same core of people commiting much of the crime in any area.

The Greatest
17th December 2007, 11:31
Only if you let them out.

Ok. So that sorts out rapists and murderers. Unless of course your suggesting locking someone up for life for shoplifting.

Wellensisno1
17th December 2007, 11:32
Do you think you pay too much tax already?.....If you keep prisoners locked up indefinitely who is going to foot the bill?....yours, truly

I would prefer my tax went to keeping them in jail as oppossed to funding their often multiple offspring.

Saint Bert
17th December 2007, 11:35
Do you think you pay too much tax already?.....If you keep prisoners locked up indefinitely who is going to foot the bill?....yours, truly

I would rather pay a few quid more in tax than have the threat that some of these people pose to my saftey...

It would be worth it to have more peace of mind, and after time it would become cheaper as fewer people would be prepared to take the risk.

I remember only 18 years ago, if anyone was glassed or bottled in the town centre, it was as good as front page news in the local rags it was that much of a rarety, now 2 or 3 a week only warrant a couple of lines on the inner pages, why, because it is happening all the time.

It is shocking that someone convicted of fraud would in all probability spend more time in prison than someone who attacks a person with a bottle and stamped on their head.

Until this country stops being SOFT on violent people and until the vocal minority stop getting their way over treating these types of people with kit gloves, the whole situation is going to get worse.

One of my customers said a relative of theirs has just been released from prison, they have done 14 months only of a 3 year sentance for assaulting someone and stamping on them while they were down ( apparently it was the 3rd time this person had been convicted of assault but the first time a custodial sentance was given ), they said that the prison had Sky Sports, Table tennis, Football, Rugby, Playstations, Higher Education Opportunities, 4 meals a day, the phrase used by this person when they got out was "It was a doddle". That somes it up for me completely.

mike
17th December 2007, 11:44
It's too late, spend a couple of hours walking around town during the day, it's frightening the dregs of society that are mooching about. To see some of these young children being dragged around town by the chavs and chavettes who have no intention of contributing anything to society makes you feel sorry for their future but at the same time leaves you with a feeling of dispair that those kids will grow up thinking that their parents way of life is the way to live, and they will become as bad if not worse in 15 years time.
I work in town and I see the very people you are talking about usually near Tescos or walking down for their methadone. I hear the way they speak to their kids and fear your conclusions are right.
It is not inevitable that the underclass should grow and grow, but we do need to tackle it. It is hard to break a benefits dependency when families have lived a certain way since the early 80s. People are not naturally lazy or want something for nothing, but the state does need to direct some folk a little more and if the guidance carrot does not work, perhaps wave the stick a bit more.
Ps. Not all crime is committed by people or the sons of people on benefiits. A lot of the kids who get up to no good near me live in expensive homes and want for nothing at Christmas, but they will still vandalise the kids swings and bush shelters on a night. Again parental responsibility is key.

Div
17th December 2007, 11:45
Ok. So that sorts out rapists and murderers. Unless of course your suggesting locking someone up for life for shoplifting.


You seem to be pretty obsessed with those two crimes. Im not talking about them at all.

I wouldnt lock someone up for life for shoplifting - but I would lock them up especially repeat offenders. They are the same ilk that mug and burgle people. Usually for drug money I should think.

Any sort of repeat thieving should be punished heavily. 10 years away and they will give it a good deal of thought before doing it again.

My 82 year old mother got her purse robbed in a shop in town with her house keys in it really affected her mentally for sometime. Some 102 year old man was robbed recently and it was reported in the Star - this is not just petty thieving it can destroy old peoples confidence and utlimately their lives.

The Greatest
17th December 2007, 11:46
Why quote the US, there are countries you could have quoted where it does seem to work ? .

Like where? I quote the US because it shows that it is not a simple case of punishing people harder to reduce crime.

Lets take your idea of punishing harsher and see where it would end up. Lets say every murderer and rapist and burgler etc was locked up forever so that they couldnt re-offend and there was an infinate amount of prisons to put them in so this wasnt a problem. You still havent tackled the problem of new criminals are coming forward and why they are doing it. You making the assumption that if your punishments are hard then people will choose not to commit a crime, in reality this just doesnt happen.



For one thing the gun laws in the US means its a completely different ball game I would suggest along with the deep routed gang culture.

Both those are part reasons but IMO not the main one. The main thing with the US is the unequal distribution of wealth, opportunity, medical care, education etc. If you dont have any money then your ••••ed....your in a vicious circle. No matter what the causes of this are the fact is the harsh punishments in the US still do not stop crime. They have death penalties and yet people still commit murder. It doesnt work.

The Greatest
17th December 2007, 11:52
If you lived in the town cnetre of St Helens mate you would son change your mind.


My first house was at the back of the town hall. Lived there for 4ish years and it was ok. I only really moved to where I am now because I needed a bigger house and the area had better schools or my kids. I had no bother round there.

Div
17th December 2007, 11:53
Like where? I quote the US because it shows that it is not a simple case of punishing people harder to reduce crime.





Japan.

Singapore.

Div
17th December 2007, 11:56
Do you think you pay too much tax already?.....If you keep prisoners locked up indefinitely who is going to foot the bill?....yours, truly



Given that I already pay 40% I think I am making a reasonable contribution already and expecting the criminal justice sytem to work shouldnt be asking too much.

Sadfish
17th December 2007, 11:57
i think this thread should now reside in the "off topic" forum.

Div
17th December 2007, 12:04
i think this thread should now reside in the "off topic" forum.


Defo. At least its a reasonable debate.

Paul Cullen's Mantra
17th December 2007, 12:08
Given that I already pay 40% I think I am making a reasonable contribution already and expecting the criminal justice sytem to work shouldnt be asking too much.


If it worked would we be having this conversation? Greater minds than you and I have tried, unsuccessfully, to resolve this problem. What a poltical coup it would be to succesfully address this problem. Unfortunately, human nature being the way it is always acts unpredictably and irrationally, and crime is something we have to live with, like it or not.

Saint Bert
17th December 2007, 12:12
My first house was at the back of the town hall. Lived there for 4ish years and it was ok. I only really moved to where I am now because I needed a bigger house and the area had better schools or my kids. I had no bother round there.

I mean actual Town Centre!

If you saw day to day what I see out of my front window walking from the south end of St Helens into the shopping area you really would dispair!

How long ago did you move? In the last 12 months there have been several muggings if people near victoria square.

2 years ago I used to live in Dentons Green, moving to the actual town centre was an eye opener in the extreme, and not in a nice way.

It is not as bad as the big cities, but to say that somewhere else is worse does not make it better here.

Div
17th December 2007, 12:16
If it worked would we be having this conversation? Greater minds than you and I have tried, unsuccessfully, to resolve this problem. What a poltical coup it would be to succesfully address this problem. Unfortunately, human nature being the way it is always acts unpredictably and irrationally, and crime is something we have to live with, like it or not.



I just think that if any of the major political parties said they were going to be genuinely tough on crime they would win by a landslide. Lets say MINIMUM 10 year tariffs with no parole for repeat offenders for burglary, mugging , robbery, violent assualt, etc . Who amongst the law abiding majority is going to object and say ' Im not voting for that' ?!!

Paul Cullen's Mantra
17th December 2007, 12:17
I just think that if any of the major political parties said they were going to be genuinely tough on crime they would win by a landslide. Lets say MINIMUM 10 year tariffs with no parole for repeat offenders for burglary, mugging , robbery, violent assualt, etc . Who amongst the law abiding majority is going to object and say ' Im not voting for that' ?!!


Why, if it is as simple as that, have they not done that then?:???: :???:

Saint Bert
17th December 2007, 12:24
Why, if it is as simple as that, have they not done that then?:???: :???:

Because unfortunately we live in a country where the vocal minority hold sway.

We are as much to blame as anyone, if everyone made as much noise about their views on this issue at election time and in an open forum rather than in the pub or on message boards like this, then perhaps the polititians who bow down to the vocal minority would actual follow what the masses really want.

I'll vote for you Div ;)

Div
17th December 2007, 12:28
Why, if it is as simple as that, have they not done that then?:???: :???:



If I am being completely honest I really dont know. I think that most MP's come from a privileged background no matter what colour the rosette and are completely detached from reality.

Paul Cullen's Mantra
17th December 2007, 12:29
Because unfortunately we live in a country where the vocal minority hold sway.

We are as much to blame as anyone, if everyone made as much noise about their views on this issue at election time and in an open forum rather than in the pub or on message boards like this, then perhaps the polititians who bow down to the vocal minority would actual follow what the masses really want.

I'll vote for you Div ;)

Correction...We live in a country where apathy and political correctness are rife...Too many namby-pamby, liberal, do-gooders for my liking...

Saint Bert
17th December 2007, 12:46
Correction...We live in a country where apathy and political correctness are rife...Too many namby-pamby, liberal, do-gooders for my liking...

But why do these people, if they are in the minority, which they are, get their way?

Because they bang their drum louder than the majority!

You are correct on one count, it is the apathy of people like us, bleating on here, that gives rise to the "namby-pamby, liberal, do-gooders" getting there wishes, like all the PC shite that is rife, because they are the only people who appear to be motivated enough to try and inflence the people that matter.

I think that if someone WAS bold enough to take a chance on people getting off there arses and backing them in a real no-nonsense hard hitting campaign they would win by a landslide, unfortunately I can't see anyone taking hat chance for fear of being left in the political wilderness should they not be backed.

The Greatest
17th December 2007, 12:48
Defo. At least its a reasonable debate.

aye. Its much better than the 'my mates mum recons Robys going to Aus coz e ates St Helens.
:D



Japan.

Singapore.

Good examples. What I would ask though, is how much of this is due to tough punishments and how much is due to the other factors in those countries (different cultures altogether, economics etc....). If it was just to do with the punishments then why does it not work in other countries with tough laws?

On the Japan situation, their crime is apparantly getting much worse (though still lower than your average western country) even though they still have tough laws. This has been put down to cr@p economic conditions etc.... This really is the main factor in crime. If people have no money, no jobs and no prospects then crime rates tend to be higher. Punishing more strongly doesnt change this.

The Greatest
17th December 2007, 12:50
I mean actual Town Centre!

If you saw day to day what I see out of my front window walking from the south end of St Helens into the shopping area you really would dispair!

How long ago did you move? In the last 12 months there have been several muggings if people near victoria square.
.

Come on mate. where Im talking about must be 500 yards from your pub at the most. Cant be that much bloody difference.

I left 4 years ago and was there for the 4 years before that.

Saint Bert
17th December 2007, 13:01
Come on mate. where Im talking about must be 500 yards from your pub at the most. Cant be that much bloody difference.

I left 4 years ago and was there for the 4 years before that.

I don't think your house was on one of the main walking routes through town though is it. That's a side issue.

I have noticed a massive rise in the number of "low lifes" around town during the day just over the 2 years since I moved here, you haven't been living in town for 4 years. Put it one way, we have a member of staff who lives in Hardshaw St, they will not walk the 500 yards as you put it home after a shift, that is how bad it has become. 3 people who come into the pub have been mugged by the town hall in the last 18 months, one of those is a 60 year old man and was done during the day ( No Arrest ). Another was attacked at 10PM on a Friday night by 6 teenagers as one filmed it on their mobile ( No Arrest).

It's gotten worse, it's getting worse and there appears to be no hope for it stopping.

mike
17th December 2007, 13:04
I don't think it it is human nature to want to stamp on somebody's head outside a pub, steal an old person's purse or drive down a residential area at a speed that would kill a child should they step into the road.
Human nature is not a fixed thing, we are conditioned by the values around us. Crime is not an inevitability, but we have to change the 'dog eat dog, I'll do what I want' mentality that has prevailed in this country since the early to mid 80s.

Div
17th December 2007, 13:10
aye. Its much better than the 'my mates mum recons Robys going to Aus coz e ates St Helens.
:D




Good examples. What I would ask though, is how much of this is due to tough punishments and how much is due to the other factors in those countries (different cultures altogether, economics etc....). If it was just to do with the punishments then why does it not work in other countries with tough laws?

On the Japan situation, their crime is apparantly getting much worse (though still lower than your average western country) even though they still have tough laws. This has been put down to cr@p economic conditions etc.... This really is the main factor in crime. If people have no money, no jobs and no prospects then crime rates tend to be higher. Punishing more strongly doesnt change this.



Its not a simple situation is it . I just dont think that crime should be seen as an easy option if people fall on hard times economically.

i have had plenty of mates and family lose their jobs and struggle but they havent started to thieve to tide them over. been made redundant twice myself but never considered crime a viable option !!

I dont think that really is the case though in this country. There is a hardcore of the population that simply wont work for a living as it stands. I think an even larger part of it revolves around drugs. Personally I would get the government to buy drugs in industrial volumes and give them away to those that want them FOC. They can get wasted without having wo worry about financing it and the rest of us can live in peace !! Most would probably O/D in no time solving the problem once and for all.

Paul Cullen's Mantra
17th December 2007, 13:12
I don't think it it is human nature to want to stamp on somebody's head outside a pub, steal an old person's purse or drive down a residential area at a speed that would kill a child should they step into the road.
Human nature is not a fixed thing, we are conditioned by the values around us. Crime is not an inevitability, but we have to change the 'dog eat dog, I'll do what I want' mentality that has prevailed in this country since the early to mid 80s.


Discipline begins at home is an addage which is banded around quite a lot. I firmly believe this to be the case. If you let your children wonder the streets late at night then you, as a parent, are responsible for the outcome of any wrong doing. We as a society need to educate parents and children alike in the art of respect and discipline, values which are sadly lacking in today's society.

Saint Bert
17th December 2007, 13:17
This has been put down to cr@p economic conditions etc.... This really is the main factor in crime. If people have no money, no jobs and no prospects then crime rates tend to be higher. Punishing more strongly doesnt change this.

I am sorry but what the hell has having no money got to do with attacking and assaulting people?

The majority of those fighting on a Saturday night down Westfield St will be employed so what is their excuse?

All these anti social gangs hanging around, they are all still at school, they have no money worries, what is their excuse?

To blame social deprivation is a cop out, and the same boring old tripe that the liberals blirt out every time someone threatens to get really tough on crime.

In this country now there is no excuse, if you want a job, you can find one, there are plenty of Poles who hardly speak any english who manage to find work, why? because they want to work.

There will be cases were genuine hardship pushes normally law abiding citizens to extreme measures to survive, but these I would say are rare.

What I worry about most is voilence, this is on the increase in a large way, what used to see 2 blokes "step outside" to sort it out with a bout of fisticuffs and a pint after, has long gone, glasses bottles, knives people getting booted to bits on the floor ( quite often by a pack of people ), people getting done in for someones amusement, all this has nothing whatsoever to do with, as you put it, " If people have no money, no jobs and no prospects then crime rates tend to be higher."

As long as excuses continue to made for the people who commit crime, then punishing the people who do will always come 2nd, as the victim normally does.

The Greatest
17th December 2007, 13:39
To blame social deprivation is a cop out, and the same boring old tripe that the liberals blirt out every time someone threatens to get really tough on crime.
.

The facts say that it isnt. Where there is depravation there is ill health and crime. Its been observed throughout time.

Saint Bert
17th December 2007, 13:58
The facts say that it isnt. Where there is depravation there is ill health and crime. Its been observed throughout time.

I ask the question clearly then.

What has

"If people have no money, no jobs and no prospects then crime rates tend to be higher."

got to do with the rise in ( I am not talking about muggings for theft ) assualts and the level of violence and brutality involved!

If people knew that there were SEVERE and I mean automatic 5 years for assault SEVERE sentances, with 5 years actually being 5 years IN prison, the level of this particular blot on society would decrease immensly.

If you pick up a bottle or glass and use it 10 years.

If people want to behave in a way that deprives others of their human rights, then they should cease to have any right to those human rights themselves!

mike
17th December 2007, 14:16
Discipline begins at home is an addage which is banded around quite a lot. I firmly believe this to be the case. If you let your children wonder the streets late at night then you, as a parent, are responsible for the outcome of any wrong doing. We as a society need to educate parents and children alike in the art of respect and discipline, values which are sadly lacking in today's society.

I agree. Without parents who are bothered, the rest is insignificant. Teachers are certainly powerless to instill any discipline if it is lacking at home, irrespective of what the bring back the cane merchants say.
I agree it is all about values - and looking out for each other. The decay of our society has many facets. Some people 'do what they want because they can' without consideration for others - the extreme form of that is jumping on somebody's head outside a pub. It also manifests itself in those who continue to use a mobile phone whilst driving, drink drive, or speed because they own a fast car and their journey is more important than anything else in the world.
My dad (like the fathers of other forum members) never jumped on anybody's head outside the pub when he was young. It was not because the penalties were tougher then, it was because people had more respect for each other in the 50s and doing such a deed would have been so abnormal.
I agree we need to punish criminals in the here and now, but we need to stop people becoming criminals. If you just build prisons, you just end up with more prisoners.

Saint Bert
17th December 2007, 14:23
I agree we need to punish criminals in the here and now, but we need to stop people becoming criminals. If you just build prisons, you just end up with more prisoners.

i agree with all you said bar the one point, that is the one above.

In the short term yes you are right, but I am convinced that if you made being in prison a punishment, make people work 8 hours a day while they are there, I don't care if it is moving soil from one end of the yard to the other to simply move it back again the day after. If prison was such hard graft and a real horror of a place to be then that would be a deterrant to anyone contemplating the "risk" of what they get up to against what could happen if they get caught.

A lot of petty criminals would certainly think that it wasn't worth the chance!

More prisons now and longer sentances to result in fewer prisoners and prisons in the future.

Paul Cullen's Mantra
17th December 2007, 14:30
www.enotalone.com/article/4486.html

The Greatest
17th December 2007, 15:05
I ask the question clearly then.

What has

"If people have no money, no jobs and no prospects then crime rates tend to be higher."

got to do with the rise in ( I am not talking about muggings for theft ) assualts and the level of violence and brutality involved!!

The point is that there isnt a rise in violent crime. People providing 1, 2 or 10 examples of people they know getting beat up does not mean that there is a rise in violent crime. Violent crime has been reducing for 10+years now.


If people knew that there were SEVERE and I mean automatic 5 years for assault SEVERE sentances, with 5 years actually being 5 years IN prison, the level of this particular blot on society would decrease immensly.

If you pick up a bottle or glass and use it 10 years.

If people want to behave in a way that deprives others of their human rights, then they should cease to have any right to those human rights themselves!

I'd have no objection to those punishments, I think your spot on with that. I also think you are spot on with 5 years meaning 5 years etc. But what I am agreeing on is from a punishment angle. From a crime prevention point of view those punishments wont act as a deterent, what they will do is punish people more harshly for their actions (which is a good thing) but they wont deter people. When people commit these acts they are often not thinking rationally, they may be drunk, drugged up, in a jealouse rage etc but they dont sit there assess what they are going to do and then make a decision based on how they will be punished for their acts. It just doesnt happen.

warringtonsaint
17th December 2007, 15:08
For less serious crimes you don't have to lock them up - reintroduce corporal punishment. Very much closer to home - the Isle of Man - the birch was a major deterrent, and it worked. (I know, I lived in the IoM for a while)

Singapore is a good example - they still use the cane (and not like the ones we use in schools over here) for minor crimes. Seems to work over there.

I say "less serious crimes".........but ask anyone who has been burgled / assaulted etc if they think it's a less serious crime. Even these offences damage and even destroy lives.

Many of these little thugs who commit these offences are in reality spineless little sh!ts who would really think twice if they were running the risk of a birching. We could even have public birchings at half time at Saints (surely better than "Hit the Bar" or whatever - might even increase attendances as well ;) )

For recidivists, then yes, lock them up. Even birch them once a week while they are inside, that would make them think twice about wanting to go back in again.

The only thing that makes me unsure about reintroducing Capital punishment for serious crimes - eg murder - are the high profile "mistakes / miscarriages of justice" that we have heard of - usually concerning police malpractice - in recent years. In cases where 100% proof is available - and there are many - no problem simply doing away with them in my opinion.

No doubt the bleeding heart liberals will disagree with me though...........

Saint Bert
17th December 2007, 15:17
The point is that there isnt a rise in violent crime. People providing 1, 2 or 10 examples of people they know getting beat up does not mean that there is a rise in violent crime. Violent crime has been reducing for 10+years now.


Mate St Helens town centre 2007 against St Helens town centre 1987 would suggest you are wrong, I used to have no problem worrying about walking around town on my own at 1AM, now 20 years later my Mrs won't let me walk around to the take away after midnight the nugget factor is so high.

Violent crime "has been reducing for 10+ years", I question that to the highest, are they government or police figures to justify their own performance? Are they figures of reported assaults, bacause I know of many people who have been assaulted in town on a Friday or Saturday night or at Football and Rugby who do not bother to report an assault as it "ain't worth the grief" for the sake of a bloody nose!

Trev The Bear
17th December 2007, 15:26
Mate St Helens town centre 2007 against St Helens town centre 1987 would suggest you are wrong, I used to have no problem worrying about walking around town on my own at 1AM, now 20 years later my Mrs won't let me walk around to the take away after midnight the nugget factor is so high!

Is that not because people hate you more now than 20 years ago though?;)

In respect to trouble in st helens i think if we banned the 10a everything would go back to normal. :saint:

Reacher
17th December 2007, 15:40
Div, Have tried to send you a private message but your box is full! Let me know when I can send one. Ta

Div
17th December 2007, 16:57
Div, Have tried to send you a private message but your box is full! Let me know when I can send one. Ta


Think it was full. Should be Ok now.

Div
17th December 2007, 17:01
For less serious crimes you don't have to lock them up - reintroduce corporal punishment. Very much closer to home - the Isle of Man - the birch was a major deterrent, and it worked. (I know, I lived in the IoM for a while)

Singapore is a good example - they still use the cane (and not like the ones we use in schools over here) for minor crimes. Seems to work over there.

I say "less serious crimes".........but ask anyone who has been burgled / assaulted etc if they think it's a less serious crime. Even these offences damage and even destroy lives.

Many of these little thugs who commit these offences are in reality spineless little sh!ts who would really think twice if they were running the risk of a birching. We could even have public birchings at half time at Saints (surely better than "Hit the Bar" or whatever - might even increase attendances as well ;) )

For recidivists, then yes, lock them up. Even birch them once a week while they are inside, that would make them think twice about wanting to go back in again.

The only thing that makes me unsure about reintroducing Capital punishment for serious crimes - eg murder - are the high profile "mistakes / miscarriages of justice" that we have heard of - usually concerning police malpractice - in recent years. In cases where 100% proof is available - and there are many - no problem simply doing away with them in my opinion.

No doubt the bleeding heart liberals will disagree with me though...........


I open minded about it. I mean they cut hands off thieves still in the middle east which I guess makes re offending problematic lol. However, doesnt exactly make working for a living easy either from then onwards !

im not a fan of capital punishment for murder- look at that poor bugger Stefan Kishko, he would havre been well strung up - having said that he probably had to endure years of beatings and when he was released he died in no time.

One thing is clear - what we have now is far from perfect.

warringtonsaint
17th December 2007, 18:22
I open minded about it. I mean they cut hands off thieves still in the middle east which I guess makes re offending problematic lol. However, doesnt exactly make working for a living easy either from then onwards !

im not a fan of capital punishment for murder- look at that poor bugger Stefan Kishko, he would havre been well strung up - having said that he probably had to endure years of beatings and when he was released he died in no time.

One thing is clear - what we have now is far from perfect.

It is incidents like that one that made capital punishment unacceptable.

However - for instance - in the case of the toerags that kicked the bloke to death in Warrington a few months ago there was no doubt about who did it; I would have no problem if they were taken out of circulation permanently. I can't remember if in the Kishko case the evidence given against him at the time was said to be cast iron certain and to what degree it was manufactured to ensure a conviction. Whatever, it was clearly wrong.

Given that it seems the police will produce anything these days to secure a conviction I know that bringing back Capital punishment is not the safest way forward, but I honestly don't know what can be done to prevent the scum from thinking that the punishment doesn't fit the crime in their favour at present and thus feeling able - and willing - to perpetrate their crimes upon us.:???:

As you say Div, what we have at present is far from perfect.

mike
17th December 2007, 18:29
The criminal justice system in this country has many flaws, but I don't think trying to think up more severe punishments would necessarily be the deterrent people seem to think.
However, I have deeper concerns on what makes people want to commit the sort of crimes Al talks about. (And having a few drinks is no excuse) Of course people should take responsibilty for their own actions, but what do we expect in this day and age when 'authors' can make lots of money by selling books writing about their 'past' football hooligan exploits.

The Greatest
17th December 2007, 19:43
Mate St Helens town centre 2007 against St Helens town centre 1987 would suggest you are wrong, I used to have no problem worrying about walking around town on my own at 1AM, now 20 years later my Mrs won't let me walk around to the take away after midnight the nugget factor is so high. !

But thats the whole problem with your argument. Your claiming that crime is higher just because your street, or your town centre appears to have a few more dodgey sorts in it than it used to. At best your info (if true) can only show if crime has risen in a very small area.


Ask yourself this. What is a more accurate measure of crime rate?

You looking out of your window and making some observations, or a crime database that has 10's of millions of pieces of data taken from all over the country year after year. Its a no brainer.

Violent crime "has been reducing for 10+ years", I question that to the highest, are they government or police figures to justify their own performance? Are they figures of reported assaults, bacause I know of many people who have been assaulted in town on a Friday or Saturday night or at Football and Rugby who do not bother to report an assault as it "ain't worth the grief" for the sake of a bloody nose!

You are spot on but there is one thing you have forgot. The figures from 10 years ago will also be falsly low for exactly the same reasons that you state they are now. What this means is that although the current figures dont show the true amount of crime the trend of whether it is higher or lower is still right.

The Greatest
17th December 2007, 19:45
im not a fan of capital punishment for murder- look at that poor bugger Stefan Kishko, he would havre been well strung up - having said that he probably had to endure years of beatings and when he was released he died in no time.
.

Pretty much sums up what I think. I'd have no moral problem with stringing up the likes of Hindley, Brady etc but your always left with the chance that you have killed an innocent person.

Paul Cullen's Mantra
17th December 2007, 19:57
Pretty much sums up what I think. I'd have no moral problem with stringing up the likes of Hindley, Brady etc but your always left with the chance that you have killed an innocent person.



Surely if you advocate,"stringing", people up you are morally no better than them, and as such could be called a hyprcrite?(An eye for an eye etc). This would be tantamount to regressing in our moral development, reverting back to an age which we once frowned upon.

Div
17th December 2007, 20:05
But thats the whole problem with your argument. Your claiming that crime is higher just because your street, or your town centre appears to have a few more dodgey sorts in it than it used to. At best your info (if true) can only show if crime has risen in a very small area.





To be fair the local crime rate IS the important one on the basis it affects YOU where YOU live.

If crime in other parts of the county was rife but where I live is pretty low then that is the important factor to any individual.

You can quote as many statistics as you like, we all know they can be pretty much manipulated to prove any argument you only have to listen to politicians to realise that !!

Its peoples individual personal experiences / perception that really matters.

The Greatest
17th December 2007, 20:10
To be fair the local crime rate IS the important one on the basis it affects YOU where YOU live.

If crime in other parts of the county was rife but where I live is pretty low then that is the important factor to any individual.

You can quote as many statistics as you like, we ll know they can be pretty much manipulated to prove any argument.

Its peoples personal experience / perception that really matters.

In the context of this debate this is not true. To me as a person and you as a person its true however if we are talking about how punishment affects crime rate then the main thing that matters is accurate crime rate figures. This can only be achieved by compiling information from all over the country. What happens in an around St Helens town centre indicates bugger all as to whether the crime policy of the government is working or not.

What I also note with interest is that when some figures suited you (ie Japans case) you were only too happy to use it as an example. What makes you think that the Japanese data is ok? Do you really trust a Japenese government that supports torturing suspects and witnesses above our own government?

Div
17th December 2007, 20:17
In the context of this debate this is not true. To me as a person and you as a person its true however if we are talking about how punishment affects crime rate then the main thing that matters is accurate crime rate figures. This can only be achieved by compiling information from all over the country. What happens in an around St Helens town centre indicates bugger all as to whether the crime policy of the government is working or not.

What I also note with interest is that when some figures suited you (ie Japans case) you were only too happy to use it as an example. What makes you think that the Japanese data is ok? Do you really trust a Japenese government that supports torturing suspects and witnesses above our own government?



I didnt particularly quote any statistics.

I travelled extensively in Japan and it feels very safe - in a way a walk around strange parts of Manchester, London, Rio De Janeiro or any city in The USA doesnt particularly.

Again, I was only going off personal experience but I suspect it DOES have a remarkably low crime rate compared to western cities.

Div
17th December 2007, 20:19
In the context of this debate this is not true. To me as a person and you as a person its true however if we are talking about how punishment affects crime rate then the main thing that matters is accurate crime rate figures. This can only be achieved by compiling information from all over the country. What happens in an around St Helens town centre indicates bugger all as to whether the crime policy of the government is working or not.
?


I suspect that someone in the Outer Hebredies doesnt really give a hoot if there is an upsurge in gun crime in Manchester and Liverpool. However, if someone was suddenly rustling sheep locally it would be an unacceptable crime wave. I really dont see what national crime rates tell us particularly.

The Greatest
17th December 2007, 20:25
I suspect that someone in the Outer Hebredies doesnt really give a hoot if there is an upsurge in gun crime in Manchester and Liverpool. However, if someone was suddenly rustling sheep locally it would be an unacceptable crime wave. I really dont see what national crime rates tell us particularly.

Like I said, to anyone local all that matters is the local crime rate...that much is true.

But this debate has turned into one that asks if the country is getting worse. The only way to measure this is to get all the data from all over the country. When you collect this information, it shows that crime as a whole is reducing not increasing as people seem to think. True, this means •••• all to you if your the unfortunate person who lives in an area that it is increasing, but overall in the context of this debate all that matters is the countries crime rate and if it is getting worse.

BTW, does anyone know if Roby is going to Aus or not? ;)

Paul Cullen's Mantra
17th December 2007, 20:28
Like I said, to anyone local all that matters is the local crime rate...that much is true.

But this debate has turned into one that asks if the country is getting worse. The only way to measure this is to get all the data from all over the country. When you collect this information, it shows that crime as a whole is reducing not increasing as people seem to think. True, this means •••• all to you if your the unfortunate person who lives in an area that it is increasing, but overall in the context of this debate all that matters is the countries crime rate and if it is getting worse.

BTW, does anyone know if Roby is going to Aus or not? ;)

It depends on the crime rate;) ;)

Div
17th December 2007, 20:34
BTW, does anyone know if Roby is going to Aus or not? ;)


Stop going off topic. ;)

The Greatest
17th December 2007, 20:42
The funny thing is that the thread still has the same title. Some poor unsuspecting soul who has not been following this thread will open it up and have to put up with this bo11ocks that we have been talking.

Personally, I blame Div. His post was the first one that mentioned the c word. lol

Tallahassee
17th December 2007, 20:47
Ive arrived to read about Roby!whats all this bollocks!:)

Div
17th December 2007, 20:48
The funny thing is that the thread still has the same title. Some poor unsuspecting soul who has not been following this thread will open it up and have to put up with this bo11ocks that we have been talking.

Personally, I blame Div. His post was the first one that mentioned the c word. lol



Nah, it was Barbarian he had the temerity to challenge what i said. lol

alf wayliner
18th December 2007, 00:41
I used to have this debate with my dad. He used to always say St.Helens is going dowhill fast and that the streets aren't safe. Then he'd regale us with tales of his youth and how certain areas of town were really tough and that the police had to go round in twos and threes and that such and such a family would have done such and such a thing. Some of the things he and my mum have told me about local "characters" from 40, 50, 60 or 70 years ago are quite shocking and would certainly not be out of character on one of those street crime TV programmes.

My mum had an uncle who was rumoured to have had a big win on the horses in the 40s. They found him dead the next morning under the wooden bridge outside Forsters glass at Pocket Nook with a knife wound in his back and his pockets turned out.

Noah Sleeroader
18th December 2007, 02:26
[QUOTE=warringtonsaint]For less serious crimes you don't have to lock them up - reintroduce corporal punishment. Very much closer to home - the Isle of Man - the birch was a major deterrent, and it worked. (I know, I lived in the IoM for a while)

Singapore is a good example - they still use the cane (and not like the ones we use in schools over here) for minor crimes. Seems to work over there./QUOTE]


yea, no problem when these deterrents (?) are used against foreigners (wops,wogs,dagos etc) but when an english person transgresses against another cultures laws these chastisements are deemed barbaric by the brit media and there is a howl for the government to intervene and rescue them.

warringtonsaint
18th December 2007, 08:31
[QUOTE=warringtonsaint]For less serious crimes you don't have to lock them up - reintroduce corporal punishment. Very much closer to home - the Isle of Man - the birch was a major deterrent, and it worked. (I know, I lived in the IoM for a while)

Singapore is a good example - they still use the cane (and not like the ones we use in schools over here) for minor crimes. Seems to work over there./QUOTE]


yea, no problem when these deterrents (?) are used against foreigners (wops,wogs,dagos etc) but when an english person transgresses against another cultures laws these chastisements are deemed barbaric by the brit media and there is a howl for the government to intervene and rescue them.

No complaints from me pal - and I think you will find that people from the IoM - one of the examples I gave - can hardly be classed as "Johnny Foreigner".........

If someone transgresses against the law they deserve whatever punishment that particular society deems appropriate. Yes, sometimes they are barbaric in our eyes perhaps, and I'm not saying I agree with all of them - for instance considering stoning a young woman because she was raped, calling for a woman to be beheaded because she allowed one of her pupils to name a teddy bear the same as the Prophet, both of which have been recent high profile news items.

That is not the same as caning someone for wanton vandalism for instance - such as damage to property - that is the norm in Singapore. I personally would love to see some young sh!tbag publically caned for kicking cars in, for example.

However, whatever happens in other countries is not within my abilities to influence, whereas in this country, it is, as I have the right to vote. I would certainly vote for a party who would take strong action to address this issue in this country.

Any why you put a question mark against the word deterrent in relation to caning for instance is somewhat strange - they do appear to work.

Still, I also do not understand the bleeding heart do gooders who think that we can merrily carry on the way we are in this country whilst offering no realistic alternatives, so I suppose I'll never be able to see your point of view on this subject.

I equally have no problem with that.

Div
18th December 2007, 09:22
yea, no problem when these deterrents (?) are used against foreigners (wops,wogs,dagos etc) but when an english person transgresses against another cultures laws these chastisements are deemed barbaric by the brit media and there is a howl for the government to intervene and rescue them.



I remember the fuss when that American lad was done in Singapore a few years ago , from memory it was for vandalism. The US bleated like mad.

warringtonsaint
18th December 2007, 09:26
I remember the fuss when that American lad was done in Singapore a few years ago , from memory it was for vandalism. The US bleated like mad.

It was for vandalism - he was damaging cars by jumping on them.

Can't remember if he was caned, although I think that unfortunately he wasn't because of the furore in the USA.

alf wayliner
18th December 2007, 09:55
Any why you put a question mark against the word deterrent in relation to caning for instance is somewhat strange - they do appear to work.

Still, I also do not understand the bleeding heart do gooders who think that we can merrily carry on the way we are in this country whilst offering no realistic alternatives, so I suppose I'll never be able to see your point of view on this subject.

I suppose I'd be one of those people whom you would label a bleeding heart do gooder, however I'm comfortable with my own particular views, so labels mean little.

Anyway here's my view, punishment is just that, punishment. It's a penalty for getting caught, it isn't a deterrent. You say "it appears to work" where is your evidence. If corporal/capital punishment is a deterrent why are there people still receiving these punishments in the countries where they are still meted out?

In my time I've been a bit of a "lad" and done things without thought of consequence, either for myself or those that my actions affected, even after getting severe beatings from my dad. There has to be a punitive element in any sentence for a crime and the severity and type of punishment contained in that sentence is up for legitimate debate. However, punishment cannot be the only element of a sentence, there has to be an aspect relating to rehabilitation and education. So by all means have a debate about physical punishment but don't think that dishing out the birch will cure society's ills in one fell stroke (no pun intended) by it's deterrent effect.

Div
18th December 2007, 10:28
. However, punishment cannot be the only element of a sentence, there has to be an aspect relating to rehabilitation and education. .


I must say that I think that rehabilitation should be a conscious decision on the part of the offender. The only way that works to my mind is making them think that the punishment when getting nicked isnt worth the risk in the first place . Trouble is that the punishment in many cases is simply viewed as an occupational hazzard.

mike
18th December 2007, 10:54
The deprivation of the offender's liberty is the punishment handed down. If I was a criminal digging ditches and getting birched daily would be a piece of cake compared to being away from my family. I don't agree that if we make punishments tougher they will come out of gaol a much nicer person and ready to stick on the straight and narrow. Some people become immune to punishment.
We can enter a bidding war, which could turn into a Monty Python sketch, to think up even more brutal punishments, but as Alf said, if they worked, they would never have to be used. The fact that there are people waiting on death row in America underlines that.

Saint Bert
18th December 2007, 11:00
Trouble is that the punishment in many cases is simply viewed as an occupational hazzard.

Spot on!

If people are coming out of prison for the 2nd and 3rd time and saying things like "It was a doddle" then what is there to deter that person from doing whatever they did before.

Perhaps if 5 years meant 5 years, it might not have been such a "doddle".

if the standard sentance is 5 years, you should get 10 for a 2nd offence, 15 for a 3rd.

If you have been in prison once, been given every opportunity to "change your ways" but then still make a decision to turn to crime then you should have no rights.

What really gets on my nerves is "time off for good behaviour", they are in there because they have done wrong, good behaviour and adhereing to the rules is what you are supposed to do in the first place. :???:

Div
18th December 2007, 11:01
The deprivation of the offender's liberty is the punishment handed down. If I was a criminal digging ditches and getting birched daily would be a piece of cake compared to being away from my family. I don't agree that if we make punishments tougher they will come out of gaol a much nicer person and ready to stick on the straight and narrow. Some people become immune to punishment.
We can enter a bidding war, which could turn into a Monty Python sketch, to think up even more brutal punishments, but as Alf said, if they worked, they would never have to be used. The fact that there are people waiting on death row in America underlines that.



My view is that I really dont care if the rehabilitate or not that is down to them - my solution is simply to take them out of circulation when the reoffend for longer periods of time.

alf wayliner
18th December 2007, 11:11
I must say that I think that rehabilitation should be a conscious decision on the part of the offender. The only way that works to my mind is making them think that the punishment when getting nicked isnt worth the risk in the first place . Trouble is that the punishment in many cases is simply viewed as an occupational hazzard.
By definition rehabilitation is a conscious decision on the part of the offender and a recognition by them of their role and place in society. By conditioning people to only see the negative effects of punishment on themselves you merely reinforce the insular self motivated aspects of society that lead to crime. It's a case of "I won't do it because of it's impact on me" rather than "I won't do it because of it's impact on other people".

mike
18th December 2007, 11:11
But if they are rehabilitated, that will be better for our society all round. If they worked in prison and were taught some discipline and respect they might come out better equipped to deal with life outside and become better citizens. It is not only better for them, but also for us (and cheaper than locking them up again and again)
If you adjusted the tarrifs to say five years will mean five years, judges would simply realign their sentences and give offenders two and a half years instead. Time off for good behaviour, I imagine, helps keep order in prison I would like to hear any prison officers views on that aspect of sentencing.

alf wayliner
18th December 2007, 11:16
I think this should be a good starter for anyone who wants to some involvement

Becoming a magistrate (http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/CrimeJusticeAndTheLaw/Becomingamagistrate/index.htm)

Div
18th December 2007, 11:17
By definition rehabilitation is a conscious decision on the part of the offender and a recognition by them of their role and place in society. By conditioning people to only see the negative effects of punishment on themselves you merely reinforce the insular self motivated aspects of society that lead to crime. It's a case of "I won't do it because of it's impact on me" rather than "I won't do it because of it's impact on other people".




A one size fits all approach doesnt work . I accept that its worthwhile investing time in some people to help them rehabilitate. What about career criminals though ? Some people are always going to be the same.

Saint Bert
18th December 2007, 11:18
http://www.lancashire.police.uk/index.php?id=3538

Only 2 of 5 given custodial sentances?

One of those involved in what the Police called a violent attack given 12 months which you know means 6.

If anyone thinks 26 weeks is a fair return for a vicious violent assault then the world has turned to shit!

warringtonsaint
18th December 2007, 11:23
By definition rehabilitation is a conscious decision on the part of the offender and a recognition by them of their role and place in society. By conditioning people to only see the negative effects of punishment on themselves you merely reinforce the insular self motivated aspects of society that lead to crime. It's a case of "I won't do it because of it's impact on me" rather than "I won't do it because of it's impact on other people".

To use your own argument - i.e. punishment doesn't work because there are people on Death Row in the States: Rehabilitation is already a part of custodial sentences, but clearly it isn't working as there are recidivists, serial reoffenders.

If incarceration and rehabilitation alone worked, then by your own argument, there wouldn't be any reoffenders.........

Perhaps punishment isn't the only answer - I do not know - but deterrence has to be a part of the answer, and as many have said on here, the present system does not offer enough of that.

That has to change surely, irrespective of our own individual views on the subject?

There may well need to be a "stick" and a "carrot" - at present, I do not perceive any stick.............

alf wayliner
18th December 2007, 11:27
A one size fits all approach doesnt work . I accept that its worthwhile investing time in some people to help them rehabilitate. What about career criminals though ? Some people are always going to be the same.
Where did I advocate a one size fits all approach, surely that was what you were suggesting in your view.

Div
18th December 2007, 11:36
Where did I advocate a one size fits all approach, surely that was what you were suggesting in your view.


I wasnt saying you did mate , if anything it was me accepting yes there is a place for education / rehabilitation but given the circumstances we have today that clearly doesnt work for all.

alf wayliner
18th December 2007, 11:38
To use your own argument - i.e. punishment doesn't work because there are people on Death Row in the States: Rehabilitation is already a part of custodial sentences, but clearly it isn't working as there are recidivists, serial reoffenders.
Is serious rehabilitation already part of a custodial sentence? If offenders are locked up in cells most of the day where is the opportunity for rehabilitiation?


If incarceration and rehabilitation alone worked, then by your own argument, there wouldn't be any reoffenders.........

Perhaps punishment isn't the only answer - I do not know - but deterrence has to be a part of the answer, and as many have said on here, the present system does not offer enough of that.

That has to change surely, irrespective of our own individual views on the subject?

There may well need to be a "stick" and a "carrot" - at present, I do not perceive any stick.............
I've not said anywhere that there shouldn't be punishment, incarceration is punishment, what I said was that there shouldn't be solely punishment. The deterrence is the impact of ones actions on society and not the impact of society on you. What is worng with society today is that we don't think of what we do in terms of it's impact on others merely how it impacts on us!

The Greatest
18th December 2007, 11:39
I used to have this debate with my dad. He used to always say St.Helens is going dowhill fast and that the streets aren't safe. Then he'd regale us with tales of his youth and how certain areas of town were really tough and that the police had to go round in twos and threes and that such and such a family would have done such and such a thing. Some of the things he and my mum have told me about local "characters" from 40, 50, 60 or 70 years ago are quite shocking and would certainly not be out of character on one of those street crime TV programmes.

My mum had an uncle who was rumoured to have had a big win on the horses in the 40s. They found him dead the next morning under the wooden bridge outside Forsters glass at Pocket Nook with a knife wound in his back and his pockets turned out.

Absolutely spot on. Selective memory about the good old days and then a contradiction.

Its like the old b@stards who reminisce(sp) about always playing out, slate the youth of today for sitting in on computers and getting fat, yet they complain when the current youngsters are out in the street playing football creating noise.

Trev The Bear
18th December 2007, 11:42
Just saw robes in the corner shop so i asked him whether or not he was staying at st helens. He wouldn't be drawn into giving an answer but does believe that st helens crime rate would be reduced if we banned the scousers.

HTH

alf wayliner
18th December 2007, 11:43
Just saw robes in the corner shop so i asked him whether or not he was staying at st helens. He wouldn't be drawn into giving an answer but does believe that st helens crime rate would be reduced if we banned the scousers.

HTH
No commentlol

Saint Bert
18th December 2007, 11:50
Here are some fact for the people who keep on quoting them

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=1101

The number of sentanced people rose by 77% in the 10 years 1993 - 2003.

Strange how the prison sentancing reforms brought in in 1991 managed to re-educate and stop the potential for re-offenders.

If the draconian way of dealing with prisoners was outdated and needed to be changed for the better of society then why such a massive increase in the number of offenders?

According to a report by the home office, recorded crime has risen by 66.7% from 1981 to 2007.

For anyone who still thinks that prison life is already "punishment enough"

From the times articlein December 2005

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1953079_1,00.html



"More than 60 per cent of young male thugs and muggers are convicted of another offence within two years of ending their sentence. Three quarters of young male burglars and thieves also reoffend, according to the Home Office figures placed unannounced on its departmental website.



A massive 90 per cent of offenders on the drug treatment and testing order, designed to tackle the link between drug use and prolific offending, go on to commit more crimes. The programme costs the Government £53 million annually. There is also a high dropout rate by offenders given the orders, which were introduced across England and Wales five years ago."

-----------------------------------------------------------------

What I find shocking most of all is the comments from the person at the Prison Reform Trust who still insisted the reoffenders are the victims of overcrowded prisons. i am sorry, i thought the victim was the poor old dear who's house had been knocked over for them to be in prison in the first place.

Saint Bert
18th December 2007, 11:53
Just saw robes in the corner shop so i asked him whether or not he was staying at st helens. He wouldn't be drawn into giving an answer but does believe that st helens crime rate would be reduced if we banned the scousers.

HTH

Well I did want to say that the crime rate has gone up in St Helens since the influx took hold and that the chav rate in town increased with the freequency of the 10A but I would not have been taken seriously :o ;)

mike
18th December 2007, 12:08
Punishing the criminal is only one way of stopping crime, there are wider issues that need to be addressed about the world we live in, and people's attitudes, but I have to do some work...

Div
18th December 2007, 13:39
http://www.saintsrlfc.com/news/736

Saint Bert
18th December 2007, 13:42
http://www.saintsrlfc.com/news/736

This is the off topic forum! :mad:

Reacher
18th December 2007, 14:15
Maybe we should close this thread now that Roby is not going to Aus! Unless we start another one. Bennett to Aus anyone?!!

wellosgal
18th December 2007, 14:21
http://www.saintsrlfc.com/news/736


Jeez thank god for that I dont have to go through all the unnecessary rubbish thats been posted on this thread!! lol :eek:

Saint Bert
18th December 2007, 14:22
Jeez thank god for that I dont have to go through all the unnecessary rubbish thats been posted on this thread!! lol :eek:


Rubbish, one of the top 5 threads of the year!! :eek: lol

Div
18th December 2007, 14:23
Rubbish, one of the top 5 threads of the year!! :eek: lol



Must have bought that baby on the way a shell suit and burberry cap. ;) :D

wellosgal
18th December 2007, 14:27
Must have bought that baby on the way a shell suit and burberry cap. ;) :D


:eek: :eek: No no no no no!!! :eek:

Div
18th December 2007, 14:28
:eek: :eek: No no no no no!!! :eek:


just joking dear lol

The Greatest
18th December 2007, 19:28
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1953079_1,00.html

"More than 60 per cent of young male thugs and muggers are convicted of another offence within two years of ending their sentence. Three quarters of young male burglars and thieves also reoffend, according to the Home Office figures placed unannounced on its departmental website.



That rate of re-offence is not good, however it is still better than places (like the US) that focus on punishment rather than rehabillitation. Still, I do support greater punishments for those that re-offend but I think you will find that this is already done (I think)??

The Greatest
18th December 2007, 19:29
Rubbish, one of the top 5 threads of the year!! :eek: lol

Much better than talking about Gardner being cr@p or Scully making yet another promise to be back fitter, stronger, better and more handsome than last year lol

Sausalito
19th December 2007, 15:24
i would disagree as are league is faster than there's at the top, the only difference is that they have 10 clubs that are high quality we have 5 with a few other clubs getting close. as for best SL vs best NRL i think the world club challenge speaks for it's self


Switch the world club challenge to Aus then you would see the difference. all things being equal we would have no chance.:???:

Saint Bert
19th December 2007, 15:27
That rate of re-offence is not good, however it is still better than places (like the US) that focus on punishment rather than rehabillitation. Still, I do support greater punishments for those that re-offend but I think you will find that this is already done (I think)??

The thing is if someone re-offends then it is obvious that rehabillitation does not work for that person.

That being the case, the courts should have a duty to take that person out of society to protect the rest of us.

mike
19th December 2007, 16:29
I agree, violent offenders should be locked up, particularly those who have used a weapon and used a degree of pre meditation. What I disagree with is your view that the worse you make the conditions inside, then the less likliehood of re-offending would increase. I know on the surface your argument sounds logical, because a right thinking person would not want to go back to somewhere really awful, but if you brutalise people in prison and treat them like animals they will act accordingly when released and are more likely to re-offend when released. That does not mean they should be molly coddled inside, but I reckon most prisoners should be made to work for their keep and be allowed to pay their debt to society.
As I have said earlier, punishing the criminal is just one lever to stopping crime and anti-social, selfish behaviour.
My biggest beef in today's society is the complete like of respect shown by (some) individuals to the wider community. These are all petty things like the kids come straight out of McDonalds and throw their wrappers on the floor, even though there is a bin two foot away.
30 years ago if a young lad put his dirty feet up on the the seats on the bus he would have been swiftly admonished, now 1.)they do as they please: 2) Most people accept it or are too scared of telling them that is not how to behave.
It is all part of the 'I am going to do what I want to do attitude, because I can' which prevails in society. It is not just young scallies, but you see the same attitude so called respectable middle aged people who persist in using their mobile phone whilst driving or worse still speeding in residential areas then bleating about the government when they get caught.
We need to build a society that looks out for each more and is less dog eat dog. An example - when I was burgled 12 years ago, it was less the fact that I had been robbed of what meagre possessions I had that stung, rather the fact that my neighbours had sat back (and in one case watched) and done nothing whilst my front door was smashed to smithereens and then all my stuff taken out through the hole in the shattered door. So much for community spirit!
Ps. I would love to know what portion of our prison population would have been in Rainhill and Winwick 25 years ago getting treatment. Care in the community - another great idea!!!