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View Full Version : 1978 & 2007 do they mark the end of great Saints era's?



The Chair Maker
13th October 2007, 23:39
Prior to 1978 saints had enjoyed a glorious era in the 1960's and early 1970's winning challenge cups and championships galore.

They then faced Leeds in the challenge cup final and were defeated.

It was the first major RL match i watched , and i spent near on 20 years watching failure after failure.

SL started and a new age was born. Saints became unstopable winning trophy after trophy.

Until October 2007 that is, when Leeds put an end to Saints glorious run of success by demolishing them at Old Trafford.

Our legends are ageing and will soon retire, our coach will soon be departing. Crowds are falling.

The omens dont look good.

Or do they?

The Greatest
13th October 2007, 23:55
The main concern to me is not so much this, jus that we are going into next season with no changes / no improvements in the squad. We have scored a pityfull number of points V Leeds accross 3 games this year, why is this going to change next year?

Saint Ryan
14th October 2007, 00:13
I doubt it is the end of an era as we do still have all the players we have had this year but Long, KC and Scully have been the spine of the team for so many years now, and when they don't play we don't and I think it showed tonight. The end of next year will be important to us. If we sign some decent players it might not be all doom and gloom, but we need some pace and people that can kick goals.

Gardner is our fastest player yet he doesn't even get the ball. Gidley and Talau are the players that need the pace so they can make gaps for the wingers, but being the wrong side of 30 doesn't help us at all. I know we all go on about JL coming back etc but the question is would he be as good as he was? Or will he be like he has been for Manly?

2008 is Saints big turning point we will lose our coach, 2 centres possibly, our hooker and maybe our club captain (even though its like he doesn't play for us anyway). We really need some signings imo in this close season. I doubt we will sign anybody but we will struggle next season if we don't sign anybody. Especially without a goal kicker, I know we have Scully but will he get injured? We need more than one goal kicker, back in 01 and 02 we had 3 goal kickers who could kick well. This year we had 2 goal kickers one was injured for most of the season and the other was a winger who couldn't get in the team.

2008 and 2009 are 2 big years for us and if we get through this we will be the same team, always challenging at the top but if not it may take a few years after to get where we are now, as each year the smaller teams in the league improve. Saints will always be up there challenging for silverware and I don't think this will change for a while yet.

sale_mike
14th October 2007, 01:08
Don't talk wet. How much did Leeds win after 1978?

brook
14th October 2007, 03:07
The main concern to me is not so much this, jus that we are going into next season with no changes / no improvements in the squad. We have scored a pityfull number of points V Leeds accross 3 games this year, why is this going to change next year?

I agreee with that,imo no other signings is a bad thing its been a while since the last time we didnt sign players before a new season and it turned out badly.

Ok we won the wcc the cc ad the hub cap and reached the gf and that has to be classed as a decent season by anyones standards but we cant afford to stand still while every other team catches up.We need at least 1 more quality forward as at times this year our go forward has been average,we need more pace and we need a reliable goal kicker.

Flanery with a pre season behind him may well fill one of those forward slots,a fit scully would be great but thats not somethig we can rely on.As many people have pointed out we are screaming out for a kicker that plays regular and we need a lot more pace in the outside backs.We will be there or there abouts in the league but with the signings other teams have made next season is going to be a lot tougher.

Haydock Saint
14th October 2007, 03:56
We need to change our attacking style of play.

Our wingers this season have not had enough ball.

Saints in recenttimes have played too much "up the middle" rugby.

We have a great defence (apart from 2nite), but our attack has been poor all year. Gidley Talau, Meli Gardner rarely get the ball. Pryce's side step and dummy is too predictable

knowsleyroader
14th October 2007, 09:16
I will say this, I dont think we will finish in the top 3 next year.

are you blind ref
14th October 2007, 09:22
The next couple of years will be a transition phase for Saints with many of our long term players retiring and new youngsters coming through. We have to accept that we can't win trophies evey year - we have been well and truly spoilt the last 2 years and although fans will be disappointed about losing the GF they shouldn't forget what the team have achieved.

We need to take time to build for the future and maybe the decision not to sign any new players for next season needs to be reviewed.

Blobbynator
14th October 2007, 09:32
The main concern to me is not so much this, jus that we are going into next season with no changes / no improvements in the squad

Me and Despondent said the same last night.


We have a great defence (apart from 2nite), but our attack has been poor all year. Gidley Talau, Meli Gardner rarely get the ball. Pryce's side step and dummy is too predictable

Both Talau and Gidley got plenty of ball last night, but did nothing with it. Anyone who says we don't miss Lyon needs their head testing. Lyon made breaks in last year's Grand Final and due to the age of our current Centre's, our guys can't as they no longer have the pace to do it. Webb, Donald, Smith, Senior and Toopi are all either very quick or reasonably pacey and for me that was the major difference last night.

Armourer
14th October 2007, 10:29
That Is Exactly How I See It No Wing Feed, And Leons Precictable Side Step Dummy Its Got To Change!!

McClennan
14th October 2007, 11:03
I don't think we'll win a game next year things are that bad.

Saints Alive
14th October 2007, 11:09
Don't talk wet. How much did Leeds win after 1978?


it wasnt what Leeds won as much as what Saints didnt win during that period, they had a wardrobe full of bridesmaids dresses could not win a comp for toffee!!!

Shakespeare
14th October 2007, 11:29
I don't think we'll win a game next year things are that bad.

Im going to go with Mike on this as Chair Maker has made me see the light and realise that Saints are THE worst team in Super League.

Rugby League started in 1996 and died last night. :(

wrexhamsaint
14th October 2007, 12:44
Last night we were beaten by the better team who, like Saints the year before, were on a mission. We were overtaken by the effort we've put in over the last two seasons.

I seem to remember a great many posts before the start of this season bemoaning the lack of investment in new (name) players. Several posters - myself included - pointed out that this season would be one of transition, bringing on the youngsters where possible and if necessary looking to 2008 or 2009.

Actually we've made progress on that. Smith is a prospect and has had a lot of game time, Clough (who should have been in the 17 for me last night) has consolidated, Tyrer has had good experience, Moore too. We've moved a long way on the stadium front too.

Oh, and by the way, we won three trophies.

I agree that we need more pace in our backline and I think we're slightly short in the pack, but the club is run by people who have consistently made the right choices for the good of the club, so I don't think we should allow our disappointment to cloud the view. It still looks pretty good from where I'm standing.

rob
14th October 2007, 12:59
I agree that we need more pace in our backline and I think we're slightly short in the pack, but the club is run by people who have consistently made the right choices for the good of the club, so I don't think we should allow our disappointment to cloud the view. It still looks pretty good from where I'm standing.

I couldn't agree more with that - as I've just said in another thread Gidley and Talau underperformed last night and are lacking in the pace and creativity we need from the back line. Gidley's defense is questionable at times - he tends to get sucked in out of the line and hey presto the gap is there. Pryce also suffers from this.

Legendary Supporter
14th October 2007, 13:05
I reckon you're being a tad despondent here, Chair!

We also had an offday at Huddersfield in the Cup Semi in 2005 v Hull and we haven't done so bad since have we?

Both Leeds and Wigan have lost semis to Huddersfield and Catalan in the last 2 seasons. So what we lost, we were due to lose one! We'll be back! We're not that bad of a team.

The really sad thing though is that despite winning 3 trophies it'll be Leeds playing in the WCC next Feb!

The key personnel recruitment though is of paramount importance over the next 18 months - from the new coach downwards!

Gray77
14th October 2007, 13:18
The main thing that worries me is that our mystique of being the team that "doesn't lose the big games" was blown away last night, and emphatically. We've all commented on the fact that the team hasnt been firing and hasnt been 100% for a while. Players have been carrying knocks, the likes of Long and Faas have been injured and the style of play we've seen this season has put alot of physical stress on our pack. We nearly cracked two weeks ago but held out with a massive vocal crowd behind the team. Last night was too much, too many weary legs, not enough invention and a Leeds team that planned well for us and simply out-played us. We'll be top 3 next season but not nearly as dominant, but that might be the way it is for a couple of years as we make the transition from the KC, Sculthorpe era to the next one. People forget that we didnt win a title for four years before last year, that arguably was the end of one era and the start of a new one with the likes of Roby, Wilkin and Lyon taking on the mantle. Last night seemed like a wake up call more than an end of things. Maybe it'll make it more exciting next season not to be so dominant every week!

parrsaint
14th October 2007, 13:51
I couldn't agree more with that - as I've just said in another thread Gidley and Talau underperformed last night and are lacking in the pace and creativity we need from the back line. Gidley's defense is questionable at times - he tends to get sucked in out of the line and hey presto the gap is there. Pryce also suffers from this.

One of the things which has been so obvious this season from the previous two is the absence of players in the three quarters who regularly make a break. There have been far less times this season when our three quarters have made a break, particularly the centres. Nearly every time Gidley gets on the outside of his man he gets caught as he hasn't got the speed of Lyon to go on his own or make a break and feed the winger.

The Chair Maker
14th October 2007, 14:02
I dont for a minute think we will next year find ourselves in the cellar dwellar zone.

I also think that our junior developmnet is the key and will bear fruit in a few years time.

However at the same time I do think last night was a watershead.

Leeds exposed the weaknesses in our squad. Other teams will pick up on that and will look to emulate them.

I see a couple of years of restructuring ahead with the main focus being on bringing through our kids and getting in the new stadium.

I worry about our lack of pace out wide. Particularly in the centres. Gidley in particular has been exposed on a number of occassions. Most embarrasingly by paceless Vaelicki. He isnt going to get any better. He isnt a bad player far from it, however I can see why he left the NRL. He probably realised it was too quick for him.

The pack i am not to worried about. Similarly the halfbacks, as we have some great players coming through.

Gray77
14th October 2007, 14:15
We've been light in the three quarters in terms of strength in depth for a few years now. If you did an American style "depth chart" of our squad there are no decent replacements for Wello or either winger and only Tyrer to come in as a replacement centre. So, we basically have 6 players to fill 5 positions and we're extremely lucky we steer clear of injuries in those areas.

Sadfish
14th October 2007, 14:33
Im going to go with Mike on this as Chair Maker has made me see the light and realise that Saints are THE worst team in Super League.

Rugby League started in 1996 and died last night. :(

relegation looms

Sean Day
14th October 2007, 15:06
Need recruitment in the backs. Said this several weeks ago. We can manage against other top teams who aren't as quick as Leeds but we get found out against them.

I would say we are still just about the most consistent team in the league, week in week out, but when we come up against Leeds we just struggle - and probably would do if we played them in a knockout game again next year unless we do something about it

Billinge Lump
14th October 2007, 15:11
Some tinkering needs to be done, I wouldn't go down the line of wholesale changes though. We need new players in the off season to freshen up the squad.

If we don't get them, IMO, we'll be looking at third and fourth not first and second.

Sean Day
14th October 2007, 15:15
Some tinkering needs to be done, I wouldn't go down the line of wholesale changes though. We need new players in the off season to freshen up the squad.

If we don't get them, IMO, we'll be looking at third and fourth not first and second.

We have virtually stood still for two seasons in the signing stakes and we have been caught up. The salary cap also ensures that no one team can dominate - look at Oz - virtually a different winner every year. I think we just need two good outside backs and we'll be sorted.

Perhaps it will take two seasons to get back to the top, perhaps we are just over reacting.

banburysaint
14th October 2007, 18:27
I don't think it is the end of an era. As some posters have have already suggested we are in a better position than in 78 since the the crop of youth players appears to be far better 07. However the next few seasons will be a period of transition as the established players retire or move on; Long, Cunningham and Sculthorpe from the UK and Gidley, Talau and Meli from over seas. This will need careful handling especially with the appointment of a new coach and back room staff. With this in mind it is vital that the new coach is appointed relativley rapidly so that the player contracts and signings can be made from a position of strength picking the best in class. As for who the coach should be that is very difficult, Bennett would not come because of the family committments that he has, and Bellamey is unlikely to leave Australia as he is expected to be the new coach of NSW.

sale_mike
16th October 2007, 00:04
It may be a watershed of sorts if your line of thinking is that Saints will go from a team who is expected to win everything to a team who has a good chance of winning everything. That is something I am not too despondent about as I firmly believe Saints will be in the mix for all the trophies next year.

To suggest that the era of success is over for good, well that is cup half empty thinking I'm afraid.

dufc4
16th October 2007, 00:17
Weve won the league leaders hield three years in a row. For me that makes you consistently the best team in the super league. It was just one of those days on saturday when nothing went right. Well come back stronger im sure of it.

DD
16th October 2007, 00:32
The Chair talks a lot of sense.

In truth, Daniel Anderson has had little to do in the way of bringing in new players with, is it four signings in his two and a half years. Now is the time to see what his judgement of a player is like.

If he doesn't sign any now, he knows he will have to have some input as to the players the club are going to have in 2009, for those signings will have to be made before his departure.

No matter what he has won, he will want to leave the club in as good, if not better, shape than he joined it in.

Rather than sit back on our laurels we need to be looking to see if there are players who can come in and do a better job than good but unspectacular players such as Gardner, Talau, Gidley, Bennett etc.

They have all done good jobs but if there are younger, better players then surely it is our duty to look at replacing them now before we find we need to replace ten players at the same time.

Reacher
16th October 2007, 00:38
I agree, its no secret that our amazing year of 2006 was preceeded by 3 new signings (Pryce, Cayless and Meli). It shakes the squad up a little too, as well as exciting the fans. I could not wait for the season to start after those signings. Players know also that they are playing for their places. I mean for instance, Wello knows that he will always play. As good as he is, there is no one to take his place if his form dips. A new signing would change that. I know there are salary cap restrictions but new signings bring freshness and prevents that predictibality that comes with certain players and systems. A couple of new faces would be great IMO

Barbarian
16th October 2007, 01:50
I agree, its no secret that our amazing year of 2006 was preceeded by 3 new signings (Pryce, Cayless and Meli). It shakes the squad up a little too, as well as exciting the fans. I could not wait for the season to start after those signings. Players know also that they are playing for their places. I mean for instance, Wello knows that he will always play. As good as he is, there is no one to take his place if his form dips. A new signing would change that. I know there are salary cap restrictions but new signings bring freshness and prevents that predictibality that comes with certain players and systems. A couple of new faces would be great IMO


When has Wellens form ever dipped? Hes only human so makes the odd mistake from time to time, but dont ever remember him go missing for an entire game!

I think some people are slightly over reacting on here. Just because we are not the best team by far, like last year, you are suggesting some sort of relegation dog fight and no trophies for 20 years! We have finished top of the league for the last three years and won 6 trophies in 2 years. We have plenty of young talent, a new stadium on the way and a top quality chairman. Therefore although we wont win everything next year, I believe we will finish in the top 3 and be in at least 1 final. And I dont see this changing for the forseeable future.

Reacher
16th October 2007, 01:58
When has Wellens form ever dipped? Hes only human so makes the odd mistake from time to time, but dont ever remember him go missing for an entire game!

I think some people are slightly over reacting on here. Just because we are not the best team by far, like last year, you are suggesting some sort of relegation dog fight and no trophies for 20 years! We have finished top of the league for the last three years and won 6 trophies in 2 years. We have plenty of young talent, a new stadium on the way and a top quality chairman. Therefore although we wont win everything next year, I believe we will finish in the top 3 and be in at least 1 final. And I dont see this changing for the forseeable future.

Woah, read my post carefully. I said IF his form dipped. All I have said is that new signings increase completition for places and even consistent performers like Wellens would benefit from knowing that there may be people willing to take his place IF his form ever dipped. I have never said he has gone missing???

scots saint
16th October 2007, 08:56
totally pathetic. we've just won 3 out of 4 trophy's this season, but already the crows are gathering. We have the best team, with the best crop of youngsters coming through. Don't start doubting DA or the Saints. We'll still be the team to beat next year

The Greatest
16th October 2007, 09:35
totally pathetic.

agreed.

Discussing rugby related things on a rugby board is outrageous.

Div
16th October 2007, 09:50
We have a great defence (apart from 2nite), but our attack has been poor all year.



In light of this perhaps you can enlighten us all as to how we are the top point scorers in SL ?

Sadfish
16th October 2007, 09:53
In light of this perhaps you can enlighten us all as to how we are the top points scorers in SL ?
Stats don't add up to some people's blinkered ideas lollol

In saying that our attack was particularly poor close to the line on Saturday and it's something we need to work on over the winter.

DD
16th October 2007, 11:59
I think some people are slightly over reacting on here. Just because we are not the best team by far, like last year, you are suggesting some sort of relegation dog fight and no trophies for 20 years! .

The only people who are saying that are the sarcastic ones who over react to anything that does not say we are the bestest ever and we will be the bestest ever for ever more!

Fact of the matter is, if we want to maintain our status at the top, we need to progress on the field, not stand still, for the other teams around us are progressing.

It beggars belief that people are refusing to see this and anyone who points out that there are areas that can be improved, or that there might just be teams who may be better than us in the near future, is criticised, lambasted and belittled in favour of the burying their head in the sand approach.

Standing still is to fall behind.

Div
16th October 2007, 14:46
totally pathetic. we've just won 3 out of 4 trophy's this season, but already the crows are gathering. We have the best team, with the best crop of youngsters coming through. Don't start doubting DA or the Saints. We'll still be the team to beat next year


The Champions are generally the ' team to beat' and unfortunately that will be Leeds next season - the same club whos academy just beat us in the Grand Final too so maybe they have a decent crop too.

I agree we will be there or therebouts when the prizes are dished out.

Gray77
16th October 2007, 14:54
Quite simply we cannot afford to stand still. As a team we'll be top 2 or 3 because we'll win 16-17 games minimum and beat most of the lesser teams easily and I dont see that changing. But that means nothing if you can't get it done in the big games against Leeds. Saturday wasnt a fluke, 3 defeats out of 4 should tell us all that Leeds have sussed us out. We can keep the exact same team and finish high up the table next year, but it wont matter unless we do the business in the play-offs. If we finished 3rd for example and had to play several play-off games I wouldnt be overly confident, coz we looked knackered about 20minutes into our second this year on Saturday. I know we have young players coming through, but our big time players are getting older and that should concern us. I dont want to sound like I'm knocking our team though, we're lucky to have them and as a kid I could only dream of winning half the stuff we've won, but logic would state that we need to strengthen in a couple of areas. Thats not being negative surely.

Reacher
16th October 2007, 16:21
The Champions are generally the ' team to beat' and unfortunately that will be Leeds next season - the same club whos academy just beat us in the Grand Final too so maybe they have a decent crop too.

I agree we will be there or therebouts when the prizes are dished out.

I agree. Their U21's also made it to the GF too so obviously they are strong at all 3 levels. Given the size of Leeds as a city and therefore their catchment area for future players, their attendances and general marketing ability etc, then it may well be Leeds who start to dominate over the next couple of years. They are certainly on the right path.

NortonSaint
17th October 2007, 14:28
As posted earlier, for years the attacking ability of the team has been centred around Scully, Long and Cunningham. At the moment their replacements seem to be Wilkin, Smithy and Roby that is not a bad trio. Two centres and a goal-kicker should now be the priority.

scots saint
17th October 2007, 21:58
As posted earlier, for years the attacking ability of the team has been centred around Scully, Long and Cunningham. At the moment their replacements seem to be Wilkin, Smithy and Roby that is not a bad trio. Two centres and a goal-kicker should now be the priority.

I agree, the centres certainly need looking at. Using the correct playmaker, rather than a dedicated goalkicker, would be my choice, though

Airsporter 22
17th October 2007, 22:42
Completely agree that we need to bring in new players and have a sucession plan in palce for when DA goes. Would be very surprised if this isn't already being looked at.
How about Big Mal (Meninga - not Reilly!) as new coach and that really fast winger from the SA Union team. Plus a regular goal kicker of course.Or that Dobson guy who saved Wigan and get shut of the fool Long. Get a new fullback (Platt?) and move Wellens to LF and make him captain.

DD
19th October 2007, 20:14
Just another point but have we been too complacent also in thinking that our 'greats' will be great till the end of their career.

We are obviously now going to keep Cunningham, Long and Sculthorpe until they retire because we saw no better replacements, but is that always a wise decison?

Look at the all dominating Wigan sides of the early 90s.

There were no bigger Rugby League legends of the era but Wigan knew, in their long term interests, keeping hold of Hanley, Gregory, Edwards and Offiah past their prime was to be of the long term detriment for the club.

You cannot tell me their replacements were better players but Wigan knew that they could not afford to let all their great players play out their course and all leave at the same time, so they gradually went on losing one year by year to minimise the ultimate effect.

Whilst nothing was won after the departure of Edwards, arguably the greatest two of them all, Hanley and Gregory were moved on with a couple of years still left in them and they continued to win things.

Hanley and Gregory went on to be good servents to their new clubs, but failed to inspire their teams to great things after they had gone.

McClennan
20th October 2007, 11:51
Don't forget that Wigoon got paid £350k for Hanley to go on his way and £440k for Offiah to do the same. That usually makes it easier to make those difficult decisions ;)