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saint yick
13th October 2007, 21:55
For the first time ever I came out of a match 10 min early, not because of what was happening on the field, it was because of crowd trouble in the 2nd tier of the north stand. This was caused by a group of idiots from Hull KR, which isnt suprising and fans from Bradford whose sole intent was to wind up the saints fans. I saw bottles thrown, canisters thrown and pints of beer also thrown.
There was a distinct lack of stewarding, in fact we struggled to see one and it was obviously going to kick off.
Tonight I am ashamed to be a Rugby League supporter and probably wont go to another Grand final which is very sad

RedVee Admin
13th October 2007, 22:19
I was in the bottom SW corner right next to the tunnel and could clearly see a group of "fans" in the Upper West stand, dressed in hi-vis jackets, causing trouble.

I saw "fans" in the centre of the Lower West causing trouble.

And the Western end of the South stand. In fact the idiot up there fighting, had to be dragged out with considerable force and tried taking people with him, including a couple of kids.

And just so it's balanced, there was trouble that I spotted in the Lower East and the Upper East stands.

In fact, it was everywhere. Granted, in a crowd that big there has to be some nuggets but for crying out loud, tonight was ridiculous.

Is it the ale? Maybe it's time to consider shifting the game to 3pm on the Sunday instead of Saturday night.

Is it the fact that the RFL have blocks of rival fans next to each other? It's time the RFL realised that their cosy integrated sport, isn't as cosy and integrated as they like to think. In the Lower and Upper West, there was a strip of Leeds fans with Saints fans either side. This was where I saw more steward and police activity than anywhere else in the ground. That says a lot to me.

All in all, regardless of the result, that was probably the worst final I've been to in a long time.

gazwxm
13th October 2007, 22:34
There's always a few idiots dotted around, I saw no end of trouble last year and I think it just depends how many morons do in fact decide to turn up and how many you unfortunately bump into.

RedVee Admin
13th October 2007, 22:51
No Gaz, I'm telling you this year was far far worse than the few idiots.

Unless I've always been shielded from seeing the muppets in the past?

Tomo73
13th October 2007, 22:55
We too came out with 10 minutes to go,which we have never done for as long as we have been going to saints let alone a final.We were in the middle of the lower west tier and the trouble got that bad that we decided to get our kids out.Both of who were scared, which is a disgrace as our game is a family game and I have never seen anything so bad.
I did not want to be there at the end for fear of what could happen.We were fortunate to have had police and stewards doing something about the trouble but no one went quietly.
I am ashamed to be a rugby fan tonight as I have always praised the way we can intergrate with other fans unlike many other sports.But after tonight I think maybe it needs to be relooked at.What shames me more than anything is that Saints supporters(if you can call them that) were also being thrown out.
We too have said that we will not be going to another Grand Final,which is sad as I have followed Saints for 20 years.

The Chair Maker
13th October 2007, 23:00
The fact the battling seems to have been in the west stand were most Saints fans were, would point to the fact that there were a lot of very poor losers from St.Helens tonight who spat their dummys because fans of other clubs were enjoying Saints getting beaten.

The best thing to do if people are goading you is to shake their hand and have alaugh with them, not thump them.

John O Gaunt
13th October 2007, 23:08
would point to the fact that there were a lot of very poor losers from St.Helens tonight

People from St Helens or attached themselves to Saints, not Saints fans. Another case of 000s of glory hunters getting tickets for a final, and thinking that the way to support their club is to get pished and then start trouble if saints lose.

Saint Jasper
13th October 2007, 23:09
I was in the upper west tier and stayed till the end. There wasn't any trouble near me but there were some annoying Leeds fans banging on the corrugated iron all the time. OK enjoy yourselves but why were they in the Saints end? :???:

Two Wheeled Saint
13th October 2007, 23:09
We started out from our seats with 40 seconds on the clock, (the earliest we have ever left a final) and these twp pr1cks started shouting "are you wigan in disguise" to say I was ••••••ed off with them was a seriousd understatement. I though no way am I taking that, went back and only because I'm a composed guy did I not plant the pr1ck who was with them. Bang out of order!!! :???: Not suprised about the bother, having so many Leeds fans in the middle of all the Saints fans.

charlie
13th October 2007, 23:10
I too was in the West Stand, and was amazed to see some Saints fans scrapping with themselves, after a bit of beer spraying over Rhinos fans.
Yes we were all upset, but its not worth getting mouthy and fisty over.
My hat (if I'd had one) goes off to the lady about 20 places to the left of me who threw caution to the wind along with her Saints top and red bra! Very entertaining and it seemed to distract some of the more boisterous members of the crowd!!

saintangel
13th October 2007, 23:37
I think the fans at tonights game at old trafford were very disappointing cos all they did was fight and didnt give the team much backing!:mad:

saintangel
13th October 2007, 23:44
i must admit i never came out early but i was very disappointed with the fans there tonight.

Saints-Crusaders
13th October 2007, 23:46
There were a few incidents of fighting in our end of the ground......... there was even 2 women Saints fans fighting with each other.

I think it's about time alcohol was banned from games and if anyone is suspected of having had a drink, they should be refused entry into the game.

Maybe not every incident of crowd trouble was drink related, but i'm betting 95% of them were

saintangel
13th October 2007, 23:48
i agree with you there booze does play a big part in the fighting so they should ban it all together or limit it to a reasonable amount and if they are drunk refuse entry!

iwonthebomb
13th October 2007, 23:53
There were a good few issues around us tonight - it took me back to the 80s matches against warrington and featherstone!!!
The trouble was in the main caused by the amount of alcohol and the RFL's determination to stick loads of "Neutral" supporters in amongst large groups of saints, or leeds for that matter, fans - it was the same in the east stand as I understand!!!
I sent a message to a friend with a few minutes to go which read like this...
"We've deserved to lose tonight but this is a hostile crowd - fights everywhere. It seems that beer and defeat don't mix!!!"
When will our fans accept that we can't win everything all the time. Maybe some of these supproters need a time travel trip to the glory days of the eighties when we won sod all in the main so they will appreciate the wins whilst accepting the defeats!!!

Saints-Crusaders
13th October 2007, 23:53
The coach we travelled on had a booze ban on it, yet someone was passing round a hip-flask that had absinthe in it. I'm all for enjoying the day, the atmosphere and the game, but surely there is no need to be drunk throughout a match ?????

saintangel
13th October 2007, 23:57
i can understand people want a drink to enjoy themselves but evryone should have a limt cos if you are that drunk surely that can spoil a game for you as you wont remember the game itself properly cos of the amount of alcohol

Saints-Crusaders
14th October 2007, 00:01
i can understand people want a drink to enjoy themselves but evryone should have a limt cos if you are that drunk surely that can spoil a game for you as you wont remember the game itself properly cos of the amount of alcohol



Funny you should say that, someone i work with was telling me before the CC Final at Wembley that he'd have to watch it when he got home from Wembley because he'd be too bladdered during the game to know what was really going on.

Now forgive me for sounding stupid, but i always thought you went to a rugby match to actually watch the game :???:

Steward Saint
14th October 2007, 00:02
Have to say the entire experience was abismal the beer was shite, the game was shite and some of the fans were unbelieveable people were being kicked out left right and centre

Concerning the Non saints fans in the upper tier i wanted to boot them out meself, only there to cause trouble however one guy near me got kicked out for saying come on people the games not over yet, it took pathetic to new levels

The Chair Maker
14th October 2007, 00:02
Beer isnt the problem, people are.

99% of the fans at the game who drank beer will have left the ground without causing any bother whatsoever.

However that 1% of nuggets who lets be honest are probably "head the balls" even without having a beer, just end up letting the side down.

Beer merely eccentuates the insanity of the human race.

topteam
14th October 2007, 00:04
We were in the middle of the Leeds fans in the north stand.
No problems at all.
Plenty of handshaking with rival fans at the end so no problem.
What did cause me concern was the plastic bottles being thrown form the upper tier on to the middle tier.
Only plastic I know, but from such a height is really dangerous...idiots.

Thoughts of excessive drink does cause my concern.

Mates of mine were drinking from 12.00, not that they caused bother, but the fact the game is on so late coupled with the usual drinking at your seat can only lead to problems.
I would vote for an earlier game time such as 3.00.

saintangel
14th October 2007, 00:07
exactly i always thought that people went to the games to watch it while you were there not just get drunk

Steward Saint
14th October 2007, 00:07
Have to say the entire experience was abismal the beer was shite, the game was close to being shite and some of the fans were unbelieveable people were being kicked out left right and centre

Concerning the Non saints fans in the upper tier i wanted to boot them out meself, only there to cause trouble however one guy near me got kicked out for saying come on people the games not over yet, it took pathetic to new levels we were all emotional but there has to be a limit

Saints-Crusaders
14th October 2007, 00:09
exactly i always thought that people went to the games to watch it while you were there not just get drunk



Nice to see a woman/girl agree with me......... it doesnt happen very often lol

saintangel
14th October 2007, 00:10
i do agree with you all the way i think it spoils the game for the true fans!

Saints-Crusaders
14th October 2007, 00:13
i do agree with you all the way i think it spoils the game for the true fans!


That's why no matter what goes on throughout the game, i'd never leave early.

I'm not letting anyone spoil the game for me

saintangel
14th October 2007, 00:18
i never left early i dont believe in it if your a true fan you stay till the end no matter if your winning or losing

N.P.G.
14th October 2007, 00:20
Tonight i was scared for the safety of my 11 yr old son, we was sat in row EE in the Stretford End.
Beer was thrown over us, food also and all because of some K**b from leeds winding Saints fans up.
I'm all for the banter and everything else but what i witnessed tonight was frightning, and how the bloke on the second tier didn't fall off I'll never know.
Banter is all good and well but when it comes to major finals it always goes OTT.
The only way this will stop is to only sell tkts from the clubs who reach the finals and don't mix the finalists up together, because we will end up like tonight or much worse.
Alcohol is also a major baring on this, it shouldn't be allowed on the terrace what-so-ever.
I had to take my son when there was about 2 mins left to play, and we even got stick from so called fellow Saints fans for leaving early, well if you was one of the people who gave it out, f**k you, i have a child to think about who was scared for the 1st time at a rugby league match at what was going on around him.
Thanks for your time.
Well done Leeds on your Grand Final win by the way.

Saints-Crusaders
14th October 2007, 00:24
Tonight i was scared for the safety of my 11 yr old son, we was sat in row EE in the Stretford End.
Beer was thrown over us, food also and all because of some K**b from leeds winding Saints fans up.
I'm all for the banter and everything else but what i witnessed tonight was frightning, and how the bloke on the second tier didn't fall off I'll never know.
Banter is all good and well but when it comes to major finals it always goes OTT.
The only way this will stop is to only sell tkts from the clubs who reach the finals and don't mix the finalists up together, because we will end up like tonight or much worse.
Alcohol is also a major baring on this, it shouldn't be allowed on the terrace what-so-ever.
I had to take my son when there was about 2 mins left to play, and we even got stick from so called fellow Saints fans for leaving early, well if you was one of the people who gave it out, f**k you, i have a child to think about who was scared for the 1st time at a rugby league match at what was going on around him.
Thanks for your time.
Well done Leeds on your Grand Final win by the way.



Seeing as i know you and your genuine love of all things Saints, then i can fully understand your reasons for leaving early and feel that you were unjustifiably abused.

saintangel
14th October 2007, 00:24
there was loads of kids near us too and they also were very scared i thought rugby league was supposed to be a family game
well can i just say why would anyone want to take there child to a game like tonights i have a child and wouldnt want to put her in a situation like that i think this sort of behavour is spoiling it for the children that want to go.

Saints-Crusaders
14th October 2007, 00:29
there was loads of kids near us too and they also were very scared i thought rugby league was supposed to be a family game
well can i just say why would anyone want to take there child to a game like tonights i have a child and wouldnt want to put her in a situation like that i think this sort of behavour is spoiling it for the children that want to go.



I don't have kids (well unless you count me lol) but i think incidents like this will have an adverse effect on families going to rugby games.

We're trying to promote our sport as a family sport but we're seriously in danger of frightening not only future long term fans away, but also the parents of the kids who will refuse to take them to matches

stpac
14th October 2007, 00:30
We started out from our seats with 40 seconds on the clock, (the earliest we have ever left a final) and these twp pr1cks started shouting "are you wigan in disguise" to say I was ••••••ed off with them was a seriousd understatement. I though no way am I taking that, went back and only because I'm a composed guy did I not plant the pr1ck who was with them. Bang out of order!!! :???: Not suprised about the bother, having so many Leeds fans in the middle of all the Saints fans.:???:

totaly agree, we had warrington fans and lots of leeds fans near us in the west stand, just 2 questions, 1 why :???: 2 how did they get tickets :???: i have a season ticket and platinum membership and got my ticket first thing on the monday they went on sale but yet the warrington fans and leeds fans managed to get seats around the same area :???: i thought the west stand was given to saints so how do they get tickets first and whats the point of the membership :???:

stpac
14th October 2007, 00:46
I don't have kids (well unless you count me lol) but i think incidents like this will have an adverse effect on families going to rugby games.

We're trying to promote our sport as a family sport but we're seriously in danger of frightening not only future long term fans away, but also the parents of the kids who will refuse to take them to matches

rugby league is a family game and tonight could have been a good game for that but unfortunatley when you have large numbers of away fans shouting jeering and generaly insiteing all the saints fans around them you are going to create a hostile enviroment, for the first time in many years i felt this could kick off big time, sad night for saints sad night for rugby league the photographers got some good pictures for tomorrows papers :(

gazwxm
14th October 2007, 00:49
No Gaz, I'm telling you this year was far far worse than the few idiots.

Unless I've always been shielded from seeing the muppets in the past?

I was in the North Stand lower tier, so didn't see much trouble. But I'll definitely take your word for it RVM...I'm just desperately trying to defend our current status as a 'family sport' :(

superporky
14th October 2007, 00:51
The atmosphere tonight was "nastier" right from the start with the leeds fans congregating by the traffic lights and singing abusive songs to any rival fans walking past. I have been to every grand final the saints have played in and this was the first time I have seen more than 1 incident of fighting at the game! Maybe with leeds being in a big game they had a few of their football fans tagging along for the day?

gateaux
14th October 2007, 00:57
I saw too much trouble from people claiming to be fans of all teams and it needs knocking out of the game before we get as bad as football - i hope the people who know these idiots have the guts to report them to the relevant authorites

stickman
14th October 2007, 00:57
was right at the side of the trouble in upper west and have to agree
one leeds fan nearly went over the balcony during the fighting.

stpac
14th October 2007, 01:06
The atmosphere tonight was "nastier" right from the start with the leeds fans congregating by the traffic lights and singing abusive songs to any rival fans walking past.

:???: :???:
come on that was funny lol me and the wife walked past and got loads from both sides of the road lol
the best 1 was who are ya ! to which we both replied wcc, 3 yrs succesive winners of the hub cap, cc holders 2 years running and currently sl champions, we got some laughs from the leeds fans and a lot of blank looks lol lol

Greengrass
14th October 2007, 01:49
Tonight must have put rugby league back to the dark ages Saints("SUPPORTERS") sat in front of us in the NW Quadrant did nothing but shout foul mouthed abuse at Leeds ("SUPPORTERS") sat behind us. They weren't there to watch the game as they were turned round most of the match goading the Leeds mob. Ban ALE ban Mixed support Ban what ever it takes to let people who want to watch a game watch it. If you cant watch a game without a sklinfull of ale •••• off and watch football or whatever knob head sport deserves you. StHelens RLFC RIP we died in more ways than one tonight.

Kellybird
14th October 2007, 01:54
We too were in the upper west tier and ended up leaving early as we were scared for the safety of our children & ourselves. I personally feel that I paid £84 for four tickets to watch a heavyweight boxing match rather than a game of Rugby League! For the first time since going to a final I truely can say neither me or my family enjoyed this experience one bit, for fear of what might come flying our way i.e some person or object!! I'm very suprised how the fight in the late second half near to us didn't result in someone being lauched over the balcony as they very nearly did and where were the stewards when all this broke out!! All in all this is by far the worst final for trouble I have ever been to and like many others feel that something should be done to avoid another final like this one!

saint yick
14th October 2007, 02:03
look at my topic from last week and you will see that I was right in what I said, alcohol and big games doesnt mix, tonight was truely tragic in many ways, I am still trying to take it all in, but well done to Leeds they deserved it tonight

Legendary Supporter
14th October 2007, 02:13
It wasn't pretty tonight.

This is the first time since 1997 Prem Final that I've been on the 'supporters' side of the fence at Old Trafford and my feelings are mixed.

I'm proud of Sts. They weren't at their best tonight and Leeds deserved to win. But we have had 3 great years and at some point our run had to come to an end. The support pre match and in the 1st half was excellent but as the game went away from Sts the behaviour of many spectators deteriated.

If alcohol is on sale in the stadium! The bars should close as the 1st half starts and only reopen as the half time hooter sounds before closing again as the 2nd half starts. This would stop the many interuptions by fans toing and froing for ale during the match.

I say if alcohol is on sale because I believe it shouldn't be. The idiots who start it or respond aggressively to goading are mainly drunk. I'm not just blaming Leeds fans here cos some Saints' followers should be ashamed of their behaviours tonight. I go to the game to watch it. Not to get so ••••ed that I can't remember it it or to have enough ale to render me unable to control myself or use it to justify some abhorrant behaviour. It's presence is un necessary at Cup Finals. If folk want to drink to excess and annoy those of us who want to watch the match, go and watch the game in the pub!

The RFL also need to review their ticketing policy. There were whole sections of neutrals in the Sts end and many of those were Leeds fans. On the whole the spirit was light hearted banter with much micky taking but as the game went on and folk got more drunk the goading became darker, ale, plastic cups and plastic bottles were at time thrown and fans became annoyed, frightened or just plain ••••ed off by it thus leading to trouble. Some Saints fans were angry at Leeds fans for celebrating their tries, again though many were young, they had been drinking and are obviously not used to seeing Sts lose. It got a tad ugly and frightening in there and this was happening around families with young children. This behaviour simply has to stop! So the RFL should leave whole sections of the ground to the finalists and stop this integration policy which tonight almost led to tragedy. This integrated system causes agitation and also affects the atmosphere

RedVee Admin
14th October 2007, 02:23
Can I suggest that you tell that to the RFL?

In fact can I suggest that everyone tells their experiences to the RFL? Make sure it's relevant and concise, general moaning would be overlooked but valid examples of how they can and should change things, may just lead to them reviewing how they operate.

For the sake of the game, the shit that happened tonight needs investigating to ascertain the cause and therefore the cure

Haydock Saint
14th October 2007, 04:03
Tonights events with the fans do not surprise me. I was thinking to myself "Who are these idiots fighting? Twice a year game attendees (all the finals) - but the club may get a £25,000 fine- because they treat it as a booze up and can't control themselves"

Unfortunately St Helens is a very rough town and many people don't know how to behave.

Just look at Church Street- newly re paved- but now full of chewing gum!!!

The town is a disgrace.

The Grant Family
14th October 2007, 08:53
There was trouble in St helens town center tonight also never seen so many fans fighting it was like a riot at a football match down westfield st.. There where police everywhere and it all started because the saints team where out on the town and a load of lads started shouting that other teams name( wigan )

It all kicked off give them there due the saints lads got out the way and didn't get involved. And then towards the end of the night it kicked off again as the lads came out of nexius. I am a taxi drive in St helens and was sick to death of the idiots get in the cab abusing me as my car was all done up and I had my saints top on some saints fans some not.

The Grant Family
14th October 2007, 09:06
Tonight i was scared for the safety of my 11 yr old son, we was sat in row EE in the Stretford End.
Beer was thrown over us, food also and all because of some K**b from leeds winding Saints fans up.
I'm all for the banter and everything else but what i witnessed tonight was frightning, and how the bloke on the second tier didn't fall off I'll never know.
Banter is all good and well but when it comes to major finals it always goes OTT.
The only way this will stop is to only sell tkts from the clubs who reach the finals and don't mix the finalists up together, because we will end up like tonight or much worse.
Alcohol is also a major baring on this, it shouldn't be allowed on the terrace what-so-ever.
I had to take my son when there was about 2 mins left to play, and we even got stick from so called fellow Saints fans for leaving early, well if you was one of the people who gave it out, f**k you, i have a child to think about who was scared for the 1st time at a rugby league match at what was going on around him.
Thanks for your time.
Well done Leeds on your Grand Final win by the way.


Hope your son is ok and to all the other fans with kids hope they are ok also We would have done the same with are kids no matter what

are you blind ref
14th October 2007, 09:11
Some very bad losers who obviously expect Saints to win everything and don't know how to deal with it when they don't. Too much alcohol involved as well as Leeds fans in the Saints end exacerbating the problem.

Yes, I was disappointed that we lost and we didn't play to our potential but our run had to end eventually and boy, what a run we've had.

saint hooper
14th October 2007, 09:38
GRACIOUS in defeat for some last night was not meant to be.
Where i was sitting was some Leeds fans and one in particular was goading the Saints fans, to the extent tensions boiled over and there was an incident the Knob head got threw out in the end and then low and behold 2 saints fans started to fight with one and other.
PATHETIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But i do agree with the majority on here who has said this stems from bad planning from the RFL and also the ammount of booze that flows.
Change KO time to make it earlier or move it to the Sunday.
GF was an utter disgrace.

Burnley Saint
14th October 2007, 10:18
All in all a nightmare, there certainly was an ellement of idiots who wanted nothing but trouble from the start. One bald headed idiot in the west stand did nothing but goad the saints fans at all points of the game wtih obscene gestures looking like some moronic premadona. Unfortunately some Saints followers reacted with quotes such as feck off to your own end and worse. The whole idea of rugby and family sports is that fans can mix well, this has now been thrown out of the water. My misses took her last bit of leave to go this weekend ( April-April) and irrespective of the result what a cack weekend. Some harsh action such s banning anyone who caused trouble needs taking by the clubs to try and irradicate this pathetic behaviour, together with earlier mentioned suggestions especially no booze.

Paul Cullen's Mantra
14th October 2007, 10:34
I must confess that I have posted some tiresome threads on this site since I joined, and I apologise for that. However, after taking my six year old son to the game last night(we were sat in the West Stand, Tier 2, about halfway up, I feel extremely angry that he should be subjected to what I saw last night. I pride myself in telling people of our great game, and it's family ethos, however, there was nothing on show last night to encourage the neutral supporter to attend further matches.
It is easy to blame the sale of alcohol, and of course it was a major contributor, but people themselves should take responsibilty for their own actions. Nobody forces them to buy alcohol in copious amounts, if we want to be treated like football fans herded around by mounted police, and looked upon as nothing more than thugs we are certainly heading in the right direction.
Our game is a great one. Hard on the field but on the whole fair. We do not need it spoiling by a minority, after all, people of my son's age are the future suporters of tomorrow. Do we really want them growing up to believe that our game is one that they cannot associate with?
As for the game itself...I thought we lacked creativity, direction and energy. I think DA needs to do some serious thinking in the off-season, as certain personnel seem ill-fit for their roles.
However, we had a great season....pity it had to end on a low note.

Saint Herman
14th October 2007, 11:13
3 Leeds fans were ejected from the West lower behind the sticks. Don't know why about 30 Leeds fans tried to cause trouble when they were surrounded by 20 000 saints fans. Also In the upper tier there was some trouble, could see a few Wigun shirts though:???:

Shakespeare
14th October 2007, 11:24
People like NPG's situation have my feelings as children should not be subjected to the sights that we witnessed last night. I can accept that some fans will want to leave with their children, as i wouldn't want to stay there i had some.

Some Saints fans though left with 10 minutes to go. There were some shocking scenes of fickle fans. For me, i find no excuse for this (obviously with exception to situations similar to NPG). After what this team has achieved over the past couple of years, never mind the past 11.

The integration of fans from different teams is silly though. I see the North and South Stand as stands to mix if anywhere. The West and East stands should be kept to the supporters of the finalists.

BlackRaven
14th October 2007, 11:32
My hat (if I'd had one) goes off to the lady about 20 places to the left of me who threw caution to the wind along with her Saints top and red bra! Very entertaining and it seemed to distract some of the more boisterous members of the crowd!!

I always miss out on things like that!!

I was in the middle of the second tier behind the sticks in the west end. I lost count of how many bottles and full/half full plastic pint glasses were flung into our section from the upper tier. Lots of people were complaining to the stewards with responses of "what can I do". How about getting people up there for a start and finding the offenders. There was a constant stream and my top was soaked through. The try signs were all made into paper planes and thrown over as well, which doesn't sound much but it was stiff paper thrown from a height and it did hurt when it hit.

When Leeds first scored, a Leeds fan a few seats aways was soaked by a guy behind him by his beer for cheering. Apalling behaviour. I just wanted to go over and apologise to him.

There was a young lad by me, and a young lad behind me and both were in tears.

Air horns, whilst better than last year, were still present. I also saw quite a few people lighting up unchallenged.

daves
14th October 2007, 11:34
I was gutted by the result last night but,even more so,by the behaviour of some of the so-called supporters of our great game.That was the most disgusting and shameful behaviour I have seen for a long time at a rugby match.
There goes my usual "come to a game,bring your kids,you'll love it,it's the best sport in the world" response to anyone who asks me what it's like at a match.God knows what I'm going to tell people after that debacle.
I think it's time to start the game around 2.15,impose a complete alcohol ban inside the ground,refuse admission to anyone who appears to be under the influence of alcohol and/or drugs and(never thought I'd say this)bring in segregation of rival fans-if this means rows of empty seats,so be it.
A sad day,not just because of the result but,even more so,because of the scenes in the stands and elsewhere.

Saints Alive
14th October 2007, 12:16
The only way this will stop is to only sell tkts from the clubs who reach the finals and don't mix the finalists up together, because we will end up like tonight or much worse.
Alcohol is also a major baring on this, it shouldn't be allowed on the terrace what-so-ever.
.


At Wembley the day was spoiled by 'anti Saints neutrals' from yorkshire mixed in with saints fans (our tickets came from saints) I had hoped that would not happen at the GF

last night the main block of saints fans behind the west end sticks was interspursed with neutrals and leeds fans

add that to drink soaked idiots (from both sides) and disapointment and or baiting and it will spell trouble.
the RFL need to ensure that fans are kept apart in big games and or access to drink is limited or even stopped because some people will never learn

and before anyone says anything I enjoy a drink as much as anyone however I choose not to drink at games, but that said all supporters are entiled to watch RL in a safe, unitimidated, family friendly, environment

gateaux
14th October 2007, 12:25
For those calling for segregation of fans how would you work that at occasions such as Millenium Magic?

Shakespeare
14th October 2007, 12:26
If anything, do something similar to Hull FC. Keep the drinking to the concourse. It would prevent the bottles being thrown at least. That has been a common complaint on these boards.

leonprycefan
14th October 2007, 12:39
For those calling for segregation of fans how would you work that at occasions such as Millenium Magic?
yes but the majority that go there are true fans, i had a great time last year and all i seen was banter and nothing else between the fans

rob
14th October 2007, 12:48
I've been watching Saints for 25years now (or thereabouts) and haven't seen anything like last night - it was embarrassing both on and off the field. I've seen the odd barney before but never anything like that. I had been intending on taking my daughter to matches when she's a bit older (she's 2 at the moment) but last night has made me think twice.

I was in the NW corner and watched some of the fracas and all fans were involved, incl seeing one Saints fan throw a pint over the rows in front of him. Segregation isn't the answer, because RL on the whole has a proud tradition of banter between rival fans. I think booze is the problem - the ideas already touted such as not allowing it into the stands and not allowing p155ed people into the ground should be a start to stamping out the trouble.

Legendary Supporter
14th October 2007, 12:55
For those calling for segregation of fans how would you work that at occasions such as Millenium Magic?

Believe you me if enough of last night's idiots attend that event (with Sts v Wigan being the last match on the Sunday) there'll be very ugly scenes

SaintedGran
14th October 2007, 13:10
That's why no matter what goes on throughout the game, i'd never leave early.

I'm not letting anyone spoil the game for me
were I was sat a wolves supporter sat next to me supporting leeds he was funny but saints fans with families were havin a go at him and his mate we ended up with the police at the side of us to protect them and they was not takin em on but what got me angry they the parents were shouting abuse at the kids and the kids were crying :o they should be ashamed at what the mother said to her son and it was her and her husband avin a go at other fans

SaintedGran
14th October 2007, 13:24
there was loads of kids near us too and they also were very scared i thought rugby league was supposed to be a family game
well can i just say why would anyone want to take there child to a game like tonights i have a child and wouldnt want to put her in a situation like that i think this sort of behavour is spoiling it for the children that want to go.
i have taken my Grand daughter who is six to all the games home and away she loves the game she probably knows more about the game than most women but she his fearless and gives her opinion on the game to anyone who wants to argue the toss with her :saint:

Louise
14th October 2007, 13:36
I went to the pub at 12 oclock, starting drinking and still managed to watch the match with no problems. The problem you have is certain people cant handle their beer and also dont go to a match from one week to the next, and use the big games as a •••• up!!! No trouble were I was sat!!

parrsaint
14th October 2007, 13:44
I went to the pub at 12 oclock, starting drinking and still managed to watch the match with no problems. The problem you have is certain people cant handle their beer and also dont go to a match from one week to the next, and use the big games as a •••• up!!! No trouble were I was sat!!


The problem is that there are too many people who can't handle their beer!

Sadly some people just treat a RL final as a another day to get completely ••••ed rather than be there for the Rugby. Its a wonder that some of them can actually remember what happended at all at the game because of the amount of ale thet have drank. In the 2002 GF one member of our group who was going turned up for the minibus and was so drunk he could hardly walk. Needless to say he was left behind in St Helens as no steward worth his salt would have let him in.

All clubs have minority of idiots and St Helens has its fair share like other towns. Idiots + Alcohol always causes problems.

Gray77
14th October 2007, 13:51
Okay, I've read all 7 pages of this thread and here's my tuppence worth. I dont have a ST so bought my ticket from the RFL coz I didnt want the dregs from the club after everyone else had bought theirs. But I found out which end we were "allocated" and so bought seats for the Stretford Upper. Why did so many fans not find out which end their club had? Why did so many Leeds fans buy seats for the Stretty? It annoyed me immensely.
I thought the trouble was obviously going to happen. You could tell from the first minute that there were non-Saints knobheads in the middle of it all goading the Saints fans. I was very close to it all and it basically ruined the entire event for me.
But, this whole thing (violence) exists because Finals are infiltrated by big game charlies who get together in big groups, get leathered and then go to the game and dont care one bit if theres a bit of trouble. All these Saints fans on there last night singing and making an idiot of themselves were complete strangers to me. I stand on the pop on the half way line and have never seen any of them at games, at pubs beforehand or around the ground. They're not Saints fans, they're people from our town who latch on the team when it suits them. I saw a big group of lads from one of my old haunts all sat in Shambles Sq in the afternoon. I know for a fact none of them go to KR and some dont even follow the team. This is what you get at big finals. Thousands upon thousands of non-fans all gathering together without any idea of how to behave at a RL game, with no idea of the traditions of the game and the tradition of banter with oppo fans. So, when you get loads of idiots from STH all ••••ed up coupled with loads of non-fans from Leeds (coz seriously, if you were a regular Leeds speccie you'd know which end you were in at Old Trafford) you have the recipe for disaster.
My two favourite quotes from last night included one girl behind me with a Saints top on saying, "I dont even like rugby but even I want Saints to win", and a lad after about two minutes commenting that "this is much better than Wembley". This is what we're up against. But if these nuggets didnt turn up then there'd have been about 35000 there last night, just like Millenium Magic. So, what do we do about it? In a free society you cant stop these people going to finals, you cant stop them having a beer in town and you cant stop them saying what they want. The only thing we can do is allocate the tickets right. But I think all thats been said already. Worst final I've even been to, horrible occasion, horrible people around me, nasty atmosphere. Ashamed of the town I'm from, maybe thats why I dont live there anymore. Sorry this has been so long!

Ikie-Mo
14th October 2007, 14:11
I posted this in the Challenge Cup thread....

I live in Reading, Berkshire so dont get to home games. I make the Broncos/Harlequins games in London and make the Challenge Cup Final (last few appearances).

I have found Saints fans at the league games in London a complete pleasure. In the pubs having a drink and on the terraces a fantastic set of fans.

This year at Wembley though there was trouble in the stands which really surprised me - especially as at times it was Saints fans against Saints fans ! Maybe it is people just enjoying Saints success at finals but you can tell the difference between these type of "fans" and those that make the effort for an away trip to London.

Rugby League has a great reputation as a family sport. Finals could be risking that reputation if stewarding doesnt get stronger.

Billy Bunter
14th October 2007, 14:15
There were too many ungracious winners and poor losers in the crowd last night. Too many nobheads who are their respective town's pondlife regardless of whether they are tanked up or not.
Fans have been drinking at finals/big games for years, in similar binge-like amounts, yet I've rarely seen trouble on such a scale as last night. I'm sure there were the same amount of drunken people at OT last year yet don't recall hearing of much incident. I'd say its more an indictment on society becoming far more aggressive in nature.

Banning alcohol, and those under its influence, imho isn't the answer. Why let, as The Chairmaker said, 1 or 2% of the crowd ruin it for the rest. If people are throwing ale and bottles, then maybe banning it from the seats is the answer. But again, if I can sit and drink a pint without pouring it over someone's head or launching it off my tier, then why should I have to stand outside a toilet on the concourse drinking it?!


One final point is that I got up to have a •••• with about 10 mins to go, with the intention of coming back to my seat. The amount of vitriol I got from opposing fans (Leeds and Wire in the main) was something I'd never seen on such a scale before. Was quite poisonous. But what really ••••ed me off equally as much was the stick from our own fans "we're not Wigan fans", "where are you going" and "get back and be loyal". Totally out of order. For a start I was going for a •••• anyway, and why should I be judged by some pillock who knows nothing about me. I can expect it and take it from rival fans, you have to take the rough with the smooth, but this superiority complex of some fellow Saints fans really grates.

Gray77
14th October 2007, 14:24
I'm not someone who generally moans about fans leaving early and all that, and I can fully appreciate people who left trying to protect their kids from witnessing some of the stuff going on, but when Saints came over to applaud the Stretford after the game half the Saints "fans" were probably half way to the metro station. We were in Row 22 in the Upper and I think there were about 20 people still there infront of us by that time. Proves the point that alot of the people at GF's arent real fans and couldnt care less about how well we've done these past two years. They use Saints when it suits them and if we lose they bolt and leave the rest of us to enjoy our team until the next big final.

are you blind ref
14th October 2007, 14:27
Have to agree that I was disappointed by the number of fans who left early. i understand that some left due to the trouble but as for the others, I'm sure they could have stayed a few more minutes to support a team that finished top of the league, won the challenge cup and made it to the Grand Final. :???:

Billy Bunter
14th October 2007, 14:31
I'd love to see the qualifications for being a "real fan". Is there a sliding scale for the amount of time that you have to stay behind after the hooter?! Do we have to clap the players until they disappear down the tunnel, or are we allowed to leave when they've passed our section of the ground.

We get enough stick off opposing fans, we don't need to be judged by our own.

Saints-Crusaders
14th October 2007, 14:35
I'd love to see the qualifications for being a "real fan". Is there a sliding scale for the amount of time that you have to stay behind after the hooter?! Do we have to clap the players until they disappear down the tunnel, or are we allowed to leave when they've passed our section of the ground.

We get enough stick off opposing fans, we don't need to be judged by our own.



We're talking about those that leave before the game has even finished......... how we have the nerve to call Wigan fans when some of our fans are guilty of the very same thing

are you blind ref
14th October 2007, 14:36
I'd love to see the qualifications for being a "real fan". Is there a sliding scale for the amount of time that you have to stay behind after the hooter?! Do we have to clap the players until they disappear down the tunnel, or are we allowed to leave when they've passed our section of the ground.


We get enough stick off opposing fans, we don't need to be judged by our own.

I never mentioned being a real fan. If nothing else, it's just good manners to show your appreciation of their efforts over the season

DD
14th October 2007, 14:42
It wasn't pretty tonight.

This is the first time since 1997 Prem Final that I've been on the 'supporters' side of the fence at Old Trafford and my feelings are mixed.

I'm proud of Sts. They weren't at their best tonight and Leeds deserved to win. But we have had 3 great years and at some point our run had to come to an end. The support pre match and in the 1st half was excellent but as the game went away from Sts the behaviour of many spectators deteriated.

If alcohol is on sale in the stadium! The bars should close as the 1st half starts and only reopen as the half time hooter sounds before closing again as the 2nd half starts. This would stop the many interuptions by fans toing and froing for ale during the match.

I say if alcohol is on sale because I believe it shouldn't be. The idiots who start it or respond aggressively to goading are mainly drunk. I'm not just blaming Leeds fans here cos some Saints' followers should be ashamed of their behaviours tonight. I go to the game to watch it. Not to get so ••••ed that I can't remember it it or to have enough ale to render me unable to control myself or use it to justify some abhorrant behaviour. It's presence is un necessary at Cup Finals. If folk want to drink to excess and annoy those of us who want to watch the match, go and watch the game in the pub!

The RFL also need to review their ticketing policy. There were whole sections of neutrals in the Sts end and many of those were Leeds fans. On the whole the spirit was light hearted banter with much micky taking but as the game went on and folk got more drunk the goading became darker, ale, plastic cups and plastic bottles were at time thrown and fans became annoyed, frightened or just plain ••••ed off by it thus leading to trouble. Some Saints fans were angry at Leeds fans for celebrating their tries, again though many were young, they had been drinking and are obviously not used to seeing Sts lose. It got a tad ugly and frightening in there and this was happening around families with young children. This behaviour simply has to stop! So the RFL should leave whole sections of the ground to the finalists and stop this integration policy which tonight almost led to tragedy. This integrated system causes agitation and also affects the atmosphere

Not selling alcohol in the ground is cutting your nose off to spite your face. Pubs will still be selling before the game so it isn't going to make a scrap of difference to fans behaviour.

Interestingly alcohol is on sale at football matches and (largely due to segregation) violence in football grounds themselves has significantly lessened over the years.

So it's perfectly safe to sell alcohol at football matches but you say it is not at Rugby League.

This is a very disturbing statement and a very sad indicment on the spectators.

Maybe we just have an element of our support who are complete tossers who would behave like complete tossers anyway.

Punishing everyone to deal with the 0.05% of idiots is surely a very over the top measure.

We have CCTV cameras. Identify troublemakers and ban them from all grounds for life. Advertise that that is going to happen and you have a great deterrent too.

PS Anyone who states that people causing aggro are not 'fans' is burying their head in the sand. They are fans, because they are there supporting the game. It is our game's responsibility to get rid of these fans.

Billy Bunter
14th October 2007, 14:44
People can leave whenever they want for whatever reason they want. Its none of your or my business why they're leaving.

Gray77
14th October 2007, 14:46
I'd love to see the qualifications for being a "real fan". Is there a sliding scale for the amount of time that you have to stay behind after the hooter?! Do we have to clap the players until they disappear down the tunnel, or are we allowed to leave when they've passed our section of the ground.

We get enough stick off opposing fans, we don't need to be judged by our own.

Appreciate what you're saying, but lets be serious. We both know that we have a huge amount of fans that dont care about our club for 11 months of the year but then turn up for the Finals. These fans would still be whooping it up in the ground half an hour after the game if we'd won, so I dont think its unreasonable of me to have a go at them for leaving with ten to go. They'll give it the "love Saints me" routine when we win, but get the hell out of there if we lose. I think our team deserves better.

Saints-Crusaders
14th October 2007, 14:46
People can leave whenever they want for whatever reason they want. Its none of your or my business why they're leaving.



Whats the view like up there on your high horse :???:

are you blind ref
14th October 2007, 14:51
People can leave whenever they want for whatever reason they want. Its none of your or my business why they're leaving.


I never said they couldn't leave when they wanted, I just said it would be good manners to show their appreciation. Sadly good manners seem to be becoming a thing of the past :(

Billy Bunter
14th October 2007, 14:55
Whats the view like up there on your high horse :???:

Me on my high horse? I'm not the one judging people for leaving early!! :???:

How am I on my high horse?!!

Gray77
14th October 2007, 14:55
Anyone who states that people causing aggro are not 'fans' is burying their head in the sand. They are fans, because they are there supporting the game. It is our game's responsibility to get rid of these fans.

I don't agree Dave. How can we as the "great RL family" get rid of these people when you and I know that they wont be at another Saints game till our next final. How do we eradicate their behaviour when its a societal issue as much as a RL one. Every lad in St Helens seemed to be there yesterday, and at times St Helens isnt an amazingly nice place, so obviously some of them who turn up are idiots and trouble will start. If those lads arent going near Knowsley Road then we as a club or set of fans cant do a thing to stop that behaviour. Grand Finals are days out for some people regardless of the game. Lots of people there may be "supporting the game" by the fact they've bought a ticket, but they dont follow the game and their behaviour shouldnt reflect on the sport IMO.

Saints-Crusaders
14th October 2007, 15:15
Speaking of fans............. lets see how many will be at KR this afternoon to welcome the team back ???? More than likely there'll be less there than there would have been had we won last night.

welshsaint
14th October 2007, 15:27
Appreciate what you're saying, but lets be serious. We both know that we have a huge amount of fans that dont care about our club for 11 months of the year but then turn up for the Finals. These fans would still be whooping it up in the ground half an hour after the game if we'd won, so I dont think its unreasonable of me to have a go at them for leaving with ten to go. They'll give it the "love Saints me" routine when we win, but get the hell out of there if we lose. I think our team deserves better.

Correct... but let me tell you why I left
I went to see a good game of Rugby League and hopefully to see Saints win.
I saw Leeds play a good game.

I also got hit on the head by a rugby ball, had beer pored over me and I was smacked in the face.....all by Saints fans. I nearly lost it by the time I had put up with Saints fans coming in late and arguing with stewards and refusing to move. A whole row of "Saints" wore oversized costumes with animal heads and didn't fit in their seats. They proceeded to stand for much of the game or insist on wearing the heads. People in rows behind couldn't see either seated or standing. Saints fans allowed their children to stand throughout the game.

I did loose it when I was threatened by "Saints" fans for having the temerity to clap a superb try by Leeds and then fighting broke out. So I left before I stooped to the level of poor behaviour shown by the above examples.

Stand at KR in the pouring rain and watch Saints win or loose? ----certainly.
Go to the GF again?----never.

The best bit of the day........shaking Steve Prescott's hand and wishing him well-----------priceless

Gray77
14th October 2007, 15:39
Correct... but let me tell you why I left
I went to see a good game of Rugby League and hopefully to see Saints win.
I saw Leeds play a good game.

I also got hit on the head by a rugby ball, had beer pored over me and I was smacked in the face.....all by Saints fans. I nearly lost it by the time I had put up with Saints fans coming in late and arguing with stewards and refusing to move. A whole row of "Saints" wore oversized costumes with animal heads and didn't fit in their seats. They proceeded to stand for much of the game or insist on wearing the heads. People in rows behind couldn't see either seated or standing. Saints fans allowed their children to stand throughout the game.

I did loose it when I was threatened by "Saints" fans for having the temerity to clap a superb try by Leeds and then fighting broke out. So I left before I stooped to the level of poor behaviour shown by the above examples.

Stand at KR in the pouring rain and watch Saints win or loose? ----certainly.
Go to the GF again?----never.

The best bit of the day........shaking Steve Prescott's hand and wishing him well-----------priceless

Can't argue with that pal, sorry you had bad time, you weren't the only one. Totally agree, the event was ruined by a minority of idiots. But everything I've read confirms my belief about how many of these people are regular match-goers and how many were there for a boozy day out. Last night made me think of never going again to a GF because I dont see it being any better in the future.

Sean Day
14th October 2007, 15:39
If nights like last night continue, parents will stop taking their kids to games and RL will be dead within 10 years I reckon. No families and the crowds would plummet

are you blind ref
14th October 2007, 15:40
Sad to read that people are bing put off going to future Grand Finals. Personally, I won't be put off by the behaviour of morons as it's them that should stop going. There's enough CCTV and people with photo & video capability on mobile phones to identify them and ban them for life. Or even better, set up some stocks in the Town Hall square and we can all go and pelt them with rotten fruit and dog poo!!

Sean Day
14th October 2007, 15:41
Can't argue with that pal, sorry you had bad time, you weren't the only one. Totally agree, the event was ruined by a minority of idiots. But everything I've read confirms my belief about how many of these people are regular match-goers and how many were there for a boozy day out. Last night made me think of never going again to a GF because I dont see it being any better in the future.

Might it be worth playing at a smaller stadium and then at least you know there's less potential for idiots to get hold of tickets

BFCSaint
14th October 2007, 16:12
Unfortunately, as many have said, society plays a massive part in the behaviour of certain sections of the crowd.
Me and my mate got there hours before kick-off, waited with other people by the players tunnel to cheer the players on as they entered the ground and soaked up the pre-GF atmosphere.

Got into the ground and realised that one of my good mates from college was in the Saints end with her boyfriend (also, one of my best mates through high school and college, watching his first ever RL game)......she's a Leeds fan. They were at the back of W21, in front of them was a mixture of a massive group of Leeds fans inter-mingled with a group of Saints fans.

It was bound to kick-off having that many Leeds fans in amongst the Saints fans...of course neither side wants to back down in an argument so something's going to kick off.

Beer isn't the major contributor IMO. If you're smart, you know how much you can handle before you "lose it" and have no control of what you're doing. We had 1 pint in the ground - •••• water, it must be said - but either way, we were there for the Rugby, not to get bladdered and forget it/start on other fans, no matter what their team may be.

As soon as the first bloke was kicked out - in the South stand in the first half - I was in shock. I'm a football man through-and-through and have supported Saints since 04 or 05 when my mate's (Saints born and bred) got me into the sport and the Red Vee. I've never seen such scenes at a Rugby game before and I was appauled that I saw Saints "fans" fighting amongst fellow Saints "fans".

Throw into the the amount of paper/card aeroplanes that were being thrown about...and the inflatable clackers being used as darts being thrown down the stands and towards the players tunnel (often landing on top) was a joke.

I've always said to my mate's that used to ridicule me for liking Rugby that it's more of a gentleman's sport, you can have some friendly banter with opposition fans without anything kicking off....yet yesterday threw that analogy up in the air.

There are some sensible solutions already in this thread, like stop serving alcohol when the game has started until half time. That way it keeps people in their seats watching the game instead of getting even more intoxicated and more likely to cause trouble.

Segregation of fans is another, but not to the extent that football fans are kept apart. Opposition fans are treated like crap by the police and stewards all the time, police escorts etc....Rugby fans are better than that.

Sensible things like making sure finalist fans are in with their own is one thing. Neutrals in the other stands where there is likely to be less of an atmosphere, therefore less chance of trouble thanks to anti-opposition chants.

As for leaving early, yes it would be respectful to applaud the players off but when you've sat through 80 minutes of mediocre rugby, with rival fans surrounding you, disappointment lingering in the air...you can't blame some people.

We stayed until they went over for that last try which was pretty much right on't hooter - which we said we'd stay for. We just wanted to get out of there and get home to Blackpool as soon as we could. We ended up watching the replay at 2am or something but I couldn't bring myself to watching it all and ended up nodding off shortly after the wee shite got his drop-goal.

I'm still proud to call myself a Saints fan and pull on the shirt with pride when I can afford to get to a game - and with Blackpool taking priority over anything it must be said - but as soon as I have a car and I can afford one, I'll have a Saints season ticket to go alongside my Blackpool one.

I'm not going to let a few ••••ed-up cretins ruin it for me.

Woodspeckie
14th October 2007, 16:24
What spoiled it for me was the idiots in front standing up to watch the fighting they were not interested in what was going on on the field and didn't want anyone else to see it.

andyathers
14th October 2007, 16:37
I was sat in the west stand with my son (10 years old).We had a load of saints idiots behind,swearing,falling onto us drunk,spilling drinks,trying to fight with leeds fans,throwing whatever they could.
Say no more.

DD
14th October 2007, 16:47
I don't agree Dave. How can we as the "great RL family" get rid of these people when you and I know that they wont be at another Saints game till our next final.

There is no concrete evidence that any of the troublemakers only go to the Finals. In fact, there is every evidence to suggest (from what I have been told), in at least a couple of instances, that we are talking about regular Saints supporters who were involved in the fighting.

ploughman
14th October 2007, 16:52
2 middle aged couples on the tram from eccles,saints fans,singing w*nky warrington at some wire supporters.i was totally ashamed to be associated with them.more obscenities followed.they were very much worse for the drink.
why do people feel the need to get drunk at major finals?i really feel they should be refused admission,why should the majority of people have to put up with drunks who spoil it for others?
i did not see any trouble at the match,but on the way out i asked a leeds fan why he was not watching the presentations,he told me to f off and mind my own f in business.he was also drunk.

superporky
14th October 2007, 17:45
You can`t criticise all fans who have a load of beer and who only turn up a few times a year, that`s what I do!

However, I live in wolverhampton and work on fridays so can only get to a couple of home games a season when I can blag some time off. However when I can get to games I make the most of it and treat them as days out which involves quoffing copious amounts of intoxicating liquor. This doesn`t make me evil or loud or obnoxious or disrespectful though. I enjoy my rugby league games and will continue to do so but don`t accuse me or label me as being a part time fan as I go to as many games as I can wether it be four or ten and it doesn`t mater if we`re playing salford or wigan as long as I can get the time off work.

Legendary Supporter
14th October 2007, 19:40
Not selling alcohol in the ground is cutting your nose off to spite your face. Pubs will still be selling before the game so it isn't going to make a scrap of difference to fans behaviour.

Interestingly alcohol is on sale at football matches and (largely due to segregation) violence in football grounds themselves has significantly lessened over the years.

So it's perfectly safe to sell alcohol at football matches but you say it is not at Rugby League.

This is a very disturbing statement and a very sad indicment on the spectators.

Maybe we just have an element of our support who are complete tossers who would behave like complete tossers anyway.

Punishing everyone to deal with the 0.05% of idiots is surely a very over the top measure.

We have CCTV cameras. Identify troublemakers and ban them from all grounds for life. Advertise that that is going to happen and you have a great deterrent too.

PS Anyone who states that people causing aggro are not 'fans' is burying their head in the sand. They are fans, because they are there supporting the game. It is our game's responsibility to get rid of these fans.

I think we're just gonna have to agree to differ on this one my despondent buddy,

Too many folk are not just going to watch the match.

They want to drink far too much alcohol, aggressively verbally abuse (using quite vulgar language) or try to wind up anyone around them who don't follow their side or are just out to cause trouble and even worse throw alcohol, urine and plastic bottles.

Last night GMP and the Stewards should have opted for zero tollerence to this behaviour, turfed folk out and prosecuted if necessary. Jeez there are enough cameras in the Ground (even to identify, prosecute and ban now the idiots after the game).

Some folk were unfit to even be admitted in the 1st place.

Alcohol + Gangs + RFL's stupid ticketing policy = trouble

And that is unacceptable where genuine folk and families are.

In the 70s and 80s those who wanted trouble went round the back of the stands had a dust up and left those that wanted 2 watch the match alone. It wasn't alcohol fueled and didnt happen in areas like stands where folk couldnt get out of the way

Its now very dangerous (as its easy to get dragged in at times with little or no reason and its happening in the midst of families).

I was horrified in the difference in the culture on the terraces last night than when I last sat with the Sts Fans at OT back in 1997........and very sadly I must report that alot of what happened involved folk from St. Helens

My worry is that it is only a matter of time before there's a serious incident involving fighting at games involving the likes of Sts v Wigan or Leeds as the pressure and out and out hatered is slowly building up

Reacher
14th October 2007, 19:59
I posted on St Yicks thread a week ago, that there was also trouble last year, that the RFL certainly did not want people to know. There were 55 arrests last year, and have said before that I expect the kick off time to be moved to an earlier slot. GMP are considering making it a 3pm kick off in future.

Alcohol is predominantly the main reason for the trouble. Its no coincidence that Utd v Liverpool games are now always lunch time kick offs. So too Utd v City. A Thursday night game against Liverpool back in 99 resulted in a lad being stabbed. Some people just cannot handle alcohol. It makes sane people totally different, a Jekyll and Hyde mentality. Add that to the fact that fans spoilt for success cannot handle being outplayed by a superior side on the night and it makes it worse. We should be able to handle goading and taunting, we have given it out enough recently over the years

No one can honestly say that if the same match had been played with a 12pm kick off, there would have been the same violence. There would not have been. Pure and simple. I can honestly say that I expect the kick off time to be moved very shortly. If not next year.

Top Saint
14th October 2007, 21:15
:???:

totaly agree, we had warrington fans and lots of leeds fans near us in the west stand, just 2 questions, 1 why :???: 2 how did they get tickets :???: i have a season ticket and platinum membership and got my ticket first thing on the monday they went on sale but yet the warrington fans and leeds fans managed to get seats around the same area :???: i thought the west stand was given to saints so how do they get tickets first and whats the point of the membership :???:

I got my tickets on the season ticket day and was sat next to Hull F.C fans:confused:

Legendary Supporter
14th October 2007, 21:16
I posted on St Yicks thread a week ago, that there was also trouble last year, that the RFL certainly did not want people to know. There were 55 arrests last year, and have said before that I expect the kick off time to be moved to an earlier slot. GMP are considering making it a 3pm kick off in future.

Alcohol is predominantly the main reason for the trouble. Its no coincidence that Utd v Liverpool games are now always lunch time kick offs. So too Utd v City. A Thursday night game against Liverpool back in 99 resulted in a lad being stabbed. Some people just cannot handle alcohol. It makes sane people totally different, a Jekyll and Hyde mentality. Add that to the fact that fans spoilt for success cannot handle being outplayed by a superior side on the night and it makes it worse. We should be able to handle goading and taunting, we have given it out enough recently over the years

No one can honestly say that if the same match had been played with a 12pm kick off, there would have been the same violence. There would not have been. Pure and simple. I can honestly say that I expect the kick off time to be moved very shortly. If not next year.


Can u find out how many were arrested / ejected this year?

peejay
14th October 2007, 22:54
Tonight i was scared for the safety of my 11 yr old son, we was sat in row EE in the Stretford End.
Beer was thrown over us, food also and all because of some K**b from leeds winding Saints fans up.
I'm all for the banter and everything else but what i witnessed tonight was frightning, and how the bloke on the second tier didn't fall off I'll never know.
Banter is all good and well but when it comes to major finals it always goes OTT.
The only way this will stop is to only sell tkts from the clubs who reach the finals and don't mix the finalists up together, because we will end up like tonight or much worse.
Alcohol is also a major baring on this, it shouldn't be allowed on the terrace what-so-ever.
I had to take my son when there was about 2 mins left to play, and we even got stick from so called fellow Saints fans for leaving early, well if you was one of the people who gave it out, f**k you, i have a child to think about who was scared for the 1st time at a rugby league match at what was going on around him.
Thanks for your time.
Well done Leeds on your Grand Final win by the way.

I too was in the Upper Tier of the Stretford End, fortunately I was towards the front so was not actually involved in the bother, but i have to say that on saturday a big part of the game died for me.........

It was bad enough seeing our team get hammered, but the worst bit of all for me was seeing women and kids coming down towards the exit frightened because of the mindless s**t H**ds (and i include every one involved from which ever teams so called supporters), so I can totally understand you leaving early, had i been there with a youngster I WOULD HAVE DONE THE SAME.

Saturday was one step too far, and something MUST BE DONE to ensure it can happen again.

I have to say that I for one cannot see any justification in Mixing supporters, so i think the ticketing issue is the major issue to resolve, but yes, sadly (because i also drink) I think get rid of the booze on the terraces.

I am a season ticket holder, and am sick of hearing comments about all of our "cup final" fans who only support the team in a final. The only way either the club or the game can grow, is by bringing these "cup final" fans into games, and hopefully convincing them that the game is worth following regularly....................... what happened on saturday will only have the opposite effect and needs to be stopped before it becomes too big an issue.... Rugby League is a family game ??????? after Saturday, i can see a lot of people dis-agreeing with that..........

AnonymousSaint
14th October 2007, 23:32
I was in NW Quadrant Tier 2, thankfully because i forgot my specs so I could not see the fighting on the other side of the Tier, but I saw 1 fight up close a couple of rows in front, a saints fan tried leave who had a child with them, I didn't see what led up to the ruckus, but I looked down to see 2 men argueing one Leeds, one Saints, when they were arguing another man (had a Leeds shirt on) jumped up from his seat and planted one right on the Saints guys' face thankfully it stood up straight and just took it, this was all taking place right in front of the eyes of steward who did nothing but only inform the police, he could have made and effort to try and stop it, I was heading down the steps and inside when the hooter went and I was shocked to find the man being asked questions by several police officers when the Leeds fan was only getting talked to by one officer, nothing came of it I hope, but the problem came from Leeds fans being integrated with the Saints fans.

The thing that didn't help unlike the CC final there was many neutral fans supporting Saints however last night I noticed Bradford fans supporting Leeds, I didn't see many Wigan fans supporting Saints, personally i didn't see any neutrals supporting Saints. Despite being in the so called 'Saints End' I felt isolated, there were Yorkshire people supporting Leeds, and Lancashire people (non saints) supporting Leeds.

Despite the talk of alcohol being the source of the problem, I applaud the drunken bunch of Saints fans near the back that kept singing throughout the final tries, the 2 rows of Leeds fans at the back took loads of grief, the atmosphere was great it was just like a sing off between the small sections of the fans, thankfully no fighting took place.

Whenever I can get to home games (I live several hours away so i have a valid excuse, but I make an effort to get to games whenever possible) I always stand with the away fans, even when we stand with Wiganers nothing takes place such as fighting, just great banter.

Personally the people who started fighting from Saints are those who can't take getting beat, what they forget is we won 3 trophies this season any team in the league would give anything to have success like this.

I do sort of agree with one post (and I hope it is not true) that Leeds FC fans went to the final because they got to a final and maybe went to cause havoc, I hope hooligans stay away from this great sport, Rugby League and Union may be the only sports that a family can go and watch and not feel intimidated.

parrsaint
15th October 2007, 00:55
I posted on St Yicks thread a week ago, that there was also trouble last year, that the RFL certainly did not want people to know. There were 55 arrests last year, and have said before that I expect the kick off time to be moved to an earlier slot. GMP are considering making it a 3pm kick off in future.

Alcohol is predominantly the main reason for the trouble. Its no coincidence that Utd v Liverpool games are now always lunch time kick offs. So too Utd v City. A Thursday night game against Liverpool back in 99 resulted in a lad being stabbed. Some people just cannot handle alcohol. It makes sane people totally different, a Jekyll and Hyde mentality. Add that to the fact that fans spoilt for success cannot handle being outplayed by a superior side on the night and it makes it worse. We should be able to handle goading and taunting, we have given it out enough recently over the years

No one can honestly say that if the same match had been played with a 12pm kick off, there would have been the same violence. There would not have been. Pure and simple. I can honestly say that I expect the kick off time to be moved very shortly. If not next year.

It's a sad state of affairs if the kick off has to be moved because playing under the floodlights creates a great atmosphere. However, in view of what has happened this year I would say that safety has to come first. I agree Stu, A 12pm or 3pm kick off would stop a lot of the violent behaviour due to less alcohol being consumed. As a Saints supporter who has been watching the Saints for over 25 years I have never had a drink when going to a match because I'm there for the Rugby and nothing else. Far too many people treat finals as an excuse to get plastered with the resulting idiotic behaviour. I also think its time alcohol was not sold in any stadia before a match simply for safety reasons because of the muppet mentality it creates.

Legendary Supporter
15th October 2007, 01:16
It's a sad state of affairs if the kick off has to be moved because playing under the floodlights creates a great atmosphere. However, in view of what has happened this year I would say that safety has to come first. I agree Stu, A 12pm or 3pm kick off would stop a lot of the violent behaviour due to less alcohol being consumed. As a Saints supporter who has been watching the Saints for over 25 years I have never had a drink when going to a match because I'm there for the Rugby and nothing else. Far too many people treat finals as an excuse to get plastered with the resulting idiotic behaviour. I also think its time alcohol was not sold in any stadia before a match simply for safety reasons because of the muppet mentality it creates.

Here here, same for me. :cool:

Oh and the RFL must also be forced to change their ticketing policy!

OsborneSaint
15th October 2007, 10:23
I think we should all voice our opinion at enquiries@rfl.uk.com !!!!

Baz1980
15th October 2007, 10:26
I too was in the West Stand, and was amazed to see some Saints fans scrapping with themselves, after a bit of beer spraying over Rhinos fans.
Yes we were all upset, but its not worth getting mouthy and fisty over.
My hat (if I'd had one) goes off to the lady about 20 places to the left of me who threw caution to the wind along with her Saints top and red bra! Very entertaining and it seemed to distract some of the more boisterous members of the crowd!!

Yeah I saw that woman in front of me! About the only thing that stopped me leaving early!!
I find it amazing how there could be so many Leeds fans in the Saints end though. I had about 20-30 Leeds fans right behind me, and I was just waiting for it to kick off. I got soaked in beer a couple of times aswel by Saints fans aiming at the Leeds fans.

saint finster
15th October 2007, 10:37
rfl has to be partly to blame for me.... i am sick of having to queue up at saints for hours on end to buy a ticket in the saints end only to be sat next to someone from Warrington as on Saturday night.... someone from Cas at wembley ... leeds at Twickenham...wigan at last years GF ... whilst on most occassions its been good natured... the Twickenham case with leeds nearly ended up not being so with the leeds fans goading and looking for trouble.

whilst i am not condoning the minority of idiots we have in our ranks ... the rfl are completly blinkered and are burying their heads in the sand !!!

this hasnt just become an issue... this has been an accident waiting to happen for a while ......:eek:

retro74
15th October 2007, 10:46
Despite the talk of alcohol being the source of the problem, I applaud the drunken bunch of Saints fans near the back that kept singing throughout the final tries, the 2 rows of Leeds fans at the back took loads of grief, the atmosphere was great it was just like a sing off between the small sections of the fans, thankfully no fighting took place.

I was sat near there and it was fine. There were a lot of drunk people, including myself, but the banter was great and I didn't feel that there was a bad atmosphere.

Even though we lost it was still a cracking day and out I still shook hands with the Leeds fans on the way out and said congratulations.

I then fell / was pushed in to a massive hole where they had dug up the pavement.

DD
15th October 2007, 10:50
Look. How the hell can the RFL be blamed for Saints supporting arse holes not being able to behave themselves?

Every year I go with a party of neutrals to the Grand Final and the Challenge Cup Final. We are a mixture of Saints, Wigan, Warrington, Salford and Halifax fans.

What are we supposed to do? All sit in our own privately segregated section with our respective fans? Do the RFL have to make everyone prove who they support before they buy a ticket?

I cannot believe what I am reading from some people. Three or four isolated incidents and all of a sudden, years of friendly Rugby League rivalries have gone to the wall and you want us all segregated.

Ridiculous!

Trev The Bear
15th October 2007, 10:52
Look. How the hell can the RFL be blamed for Saints supporting arse holes not being able to behave themselves?

Every year I go with a party of neutrals to the Grand Final and the Challenge Cup Final. We are a mixture of Saints, Wigan, Warrington, Salford and Halifax fans.

What are we supposed to do? All sit in our own privately segregated section with our respective fans? Do the RFL have to make everyone prove who they support before they buy a ticket?

I cannot believe what I am reading from some people. Three or four isolated incidents and all of a sudden, years of friendly Rugby League rivalries have gone to the wall and you want us all segregated.

Ridiculous!
Spot on!

Abdabz
15th October 2007, 11:08
I'd love to see the qualifications for being a "real fan". Is there a sliding scale for the amount of time that you have to stay behind after the hooter?! Do we have to clap the players until they disappear down the tunnel, or are we allowed to leave when they've passed our section of the ground.

We get enough stick off opposing fans, we don't need to be judged by our own.

Absolutely! My missus was until recently a season ticket holder at KR. She didnt renew due to family health reasons but thats another story.
We were sat in the lower north west quad watching with one eye all the numpties in the upper and lower west stand kicking off and with the other eye watching the lazy ineptitude on the pitch with the other, when with 10mins to go I said "come on love, this is sh1te, lets get a head start on the traffic and go".....
"Oooo we cant do the Wigan walk" I was told :rolleyes: Ahhh OK, so to look good in front of all these people we dont know and dont care about, we'll endure another 10minutes of this unpleasant dross just to look like "proper fans" lol
The thought that what some massochistic "proper" fan might think of me for not wanting to be surrounded by drunken thugs and woeful rugby for any longer than I need to be is hilarious...

If "proper" fans abuse "glory hunters" for not staying to the painful end when it's that bad on and off the pitch, using terms like "the wigan walk" to make you feel bad, etc, then it's no wonder that the club has struggled to attract more to their league home matches...:rolleyes:

I had a great day out until 10mins into the second half, when the game was over and my missus had witnessed saints fans fighting by the loos in our section... It just got worse from there and I hope more segregation and an earlier kick off help things along next year.

Abdabz
15th October 2007, 11:09
I'd love to see the qualifications for being a "real fan". Is there a sliding scale for the amount of time that you have to stay behind after the hooter?! Do we have to clap the players until they disappear down the tunnel, or are we allowed to leave when they've passed our section of the ground.

We get enough stick off opposing fans, we don't need to be judged by our own.

Absolutely! My missus was until recently a season ticket holder at KR. She didnt renew due to family health reasons but thats another story.
We were sat in the lower north west quad watching with one eye all the numpties in the upper and lower west stand kicking off and with the other eye watching the lazy ineptitude on the pitch, when with 10mins to go I said "come on love, this is sh1te, lets get a head start on the traffic and go".....
"Oooo we cant do the Wigan walk" I was told :rolleyes: Ahhh OK, so to look good in front of all these people we dont know and dont care about, we'll endure another 10minutes of this unpleasant dross just to look like "proper fans" lol
The thought that what some massochistic "proper" fan might think of me for not wanting to be surrounded by drunken thugs and woeful rugby for any longer than I need to be is hilarious...

If "proper" fans abuse "glory hunters" for not staying to the painful end when it's that bad on and off the pitch, using terms like "the wigan walk" to make you feel bad, etc, then it's no wonder that the club has struggled to attract more to their league home matches...:rolleyes:

I had a great day out until 10mins into the second half, when the game was over and my missus had witnessed saints fans fighting by the loos in our section... It just got worse from there and I hope more segregation and an earlier kick off help things along next year.

Reacher
15th October 2007, 12:08
Look. How the hell can the RFL be blamed for Saints supporting arse holes not being able to behave themselves?

Every year I go with a party of neutrals to the Grand Final and the Challenge Cup Final. We are a mixture of Saints, Wigan, Warrington, Salford and Halifax fans.

What are we supposed to do? All sit in our own privately segregated section with our respective fans? Do the RFL have to make everyone prove who they support before they buy a ticket?

I cannot believe what I am reading from some people. Three or four isolated incidents and all of a sudden, years of friendly Rugby League rivalries have gone to the wall and you want us all segregated.

Ridiculous!

Unfortunately Dave, these isolated incidents are not so isolated anymore. The powers that be are just very good at not reporting them. As far back as the 2003 GF, there was disorder at the Bradford/Leeds game, and then we have had the last 2 years worth of incidents. There have also been a few "unreported" incidents at the Sts/Wigan derby games at the JJB over the last couple of seasons.

I have gone with my mates after drinking all day but as we are all decent lads, there have been no problems. Am sure this is the case with you and your party. We even sat with the Wigan fans on Good Friday and had some really good banter with them. However as said by a few on here, it is the alcohol that is causing the problem. I am not an alcohol counsellor and am not trying to preach on here, but the fact is that some just cannot handle it and change personalities. If that means segregation until the kick off time is changed or alcohol ban inside the stadium, then so be it because that is what will happen whether we like it or not.

If GMP dictate that it will be an earlier kick off time, then there is nothing that the RFL can do about it. We are talking about a minority of fans who are causing the trouble here and spoiling it for the majority, but it will only take one serious injury to maybe a child for example, and you will see changes.

Its just a sad state of affairs, but even looking at the Hull/Hull KR derby and the trouble there, there is just a small group of troublemakers now creeping into the game. Some of the young ones who stand at KR, just want to use it as a meeting point and dont even watch the game, instead listen to their I Pods??! There was fighting at the back of the Edington end at the Sts/Hull game this year and also trouble at the Wigan/Hull KR game this year when a few Hull kR fans were arrested.

We are not like football where mounted police and dogs are necessary, however all I am saying is that slowly but surely, there are more incidents. Whatever will be done is not my decision, I am just offering my point of view.

DD
15th October 2007, 12:16
Unfortunately Dave, these isolated incidents are not so isolated anymore. The powers that be are just very good at not reporting them. As far back as the 2003 GF, there was disorder at the Bradford/Leeds game, and then we have had the last 2 years worth of incidents. There have also been a few "unreported" incidents at the Sts/Wigan derby games at the JJB over the last couple of seasons.

I have gone with my mates after drinking all day but as we are all decent lads, there have been no problems. Am sure this is the case with you and your party. We even sat with the Wigan fans on Good Friday and had some really good banter with them. However as said by a few on here, it is the alcohol that is causing the problem. I am not an alcohol counsellor and am not trying to preach on here, but the fact is that some just cannot handle it and change personalities. If that means segregation until the kick off time is changed or alcohol ban inside the stadium, then so be it because that is what will happen whether we like it or not.

If GMP dictate that it will be an earlier kick off time, then there is nothing that the RFL can do about it. We are talking about a minority of fans who are causing the trouble here and spoiling it for the majority, but it will only take one serious injury to maybe a child for example, and you will see changes.

Its just a sad state of affairs, but even looking at the Hull/Hull KR derby and the trouble there, there is just a small group of troublemakers now creeping into the game. Some of the young ones who stand at KR, just want to use it as a meeting point and dont even watch the game, instead listen to their I Pods??! There was fighting at the back of the Edington end at the Sts/Hull game this year and also trouble at the Wigan/Hull KR game this year when a few Hull kR fans were arrested.

We are not like football where mounted police and dogs are necessary, however all I am saying is that slowly but surely, there are more incidents. Whatever will be done is not my decision, I am just offering my point of view.

I don't disagree with any of that but talk of segregation is going too far and is simply not practical.

On the basis that fans from all clubs attend the game, not just the two participating clubs and that fans of both those participating clubs will have bought their tickets well in advance of the Final, then it is absolutely impossible to police.

Maybe a review of the kick off time is required but Sky are unlikely to want that. It would be a police decision and I don't think there has been enough to make them do that just yet.

I will be honest though, I have been to every Old Trafford final since 1990 and it's the first time I have ever seen any incidents. I remember nothing untoward in some of the games you mention.

Sadfish
15th October 2007, 12:21
I've been going to cup finals for 30 years and can't remember one where there wasnt trouble.

Every year we have the same threads about trouble caused, but in a few weeks it will all be forgotten.

Reacher
15th October 2007, 12:32
I don't disagree with any of that but talk of segregation is going too far and is simply not practical.

On the basis that fans from all clubs attend the game, not just the two participating clubs and that fans of both those participating clubs will have bought their tickets well in advance of the Final, then it is absolutely impossible to police.

Maybe a review of the kick off time is required but Sky are unlikely to want that. It would be a police decision and I don't think there has been enough to make them do that just yet.

I will be honest though, I have been to every Old Trafford final since 1990 and it's the first time I have ever seen any incidents. I remember nothing untoward in some of the games you mention.

I did not see any incidents at the GF last year, but I know they happened. Its like when you go a night out. You can stay around one part of town and see no trouble but there may be major fighting round the corner that you dont see. Thats what I was stating about them being "unreported", it keeps the bad news away from everyone.

The segregation would be sorted out by one set of fans being in the West stand and the others in the East Stand. Any other fan who supports another team would sit in the North/South stand. It would be no more harder to police than an FA Cup game at Utd where the away team brings 9500 fans. The kick off time was very nearly changed for this year, so I think there is more than a realistic chance of it being changed next year. It will spoil what should be a fantastic occasion, but unfortunately this is now just another fact of life. Its the first time that I have heard people stating that they will not go to another GF as a result.

St Michael
15th October 2007, 12:35
I've been going to cup finals for 30 years and can't remember one where there wasnt trouble.

Every year we have the same threads about trouble caused, but in a few weeks it will all be forgotten.

Correct.

There are always prats at such games, usually p1$$ed out of their brains.

As far back as Wembley 1976 I remember idiots openly urinating on the terraces after the game and waving their tossers at women & kids.

I don't know the answers, but I'm sure early kick-off and a ban on alcohol in the stadium might help.

fozzymodo
15th October 2007, 13:07
were wassat in north stand with some wigan fans to was shocked they were singin saints songs,to which there was 12 of us in our group singing with them and the saints fans around were just not joinin in were are they when singin at knowsley round need to get behind team more COME ON YOU SAINT FANS

RedVee Admin
15th October 2007, 13:29
My suggestion:

Finalists sell West stand and East stand tickets.
RFL sell North stand and South stand tickets.
No drinks, cups, bottles, allowed to be taken from the concourse to the seating area.



It's hardly rocket science and I believe it would cure at least 90% of the problems found on Saturday night.

ploughman
15th October 2007, 13:37
My cure:

Finalists get West stand and East stand to sell from their ticket offices.

RFL sell North stand and South stand tickets.

No drinks, cups, bottles, allowed to be taken from the concourse to the seats.

and anyone who appears to be so drunk as to cause trouble is refused admission

anyone causing trouble is immediatly thrown out

oh,they stop serving kids who are under age.i was amazed when one of the lads who was in our party was served a pint,he is 15 and clearly looks it.his dad took it off him and drunk it himself

Sean Day
15th October 2007, 13:45
My suggestion:

Finalists sell West stand and East stand tickets.
RFL sell North stand and South stand tickets.
No drinks, cups, bottles, allowed to be taken from the concourse to the seating area.



It's hardly rocket science and I believe it would cure at least 90% of the problems found on Saturday night.

Good points on the face of it but that wouldn't stop a finalist team fan buying an RFL ticket in one of the neutral stands, either in advance or when they know their team is in the final. How many people now buy through the RFL rather than queue at the club? Lots I reckon. It would possibly reduce the problem but I don't think totally.

Perhaps neutral and finalists fans should have to order tickets through their clubs? With the clubs acting as kind of agents or middle men? Didn't something similar happen for Millennium Magic? I know that still leaves holes but you would have to be pretty determined to go to another club and get a ticket so that you could pick fights with people. I don't think we are at the organised fighting stage yet.

I just think the system as it is at the moment - where a Leeds fan can just go online and order himself a ticket in the Saints end or vice versa - is wide open to abuse. It's a shame, but you have to deal with the reality

WIGANHATER
15th October 2007, 13:58
Add that to the fact that fans spoilt for success cannot handle being outplayed by a superior side on the night and it makes it worse.


I agree. We have a lot of bandwagon jumpers that have only experienced success. I suspect these fans went to see saints win and not support their team win or lose.

I was disappointed with the lack of police presense once you got outside the stadium.

I enjoyed the day upto 60 mins into the game. Everywhere you turned you could see people battling with each other.

Such a shame for those with young families who may have taken a young child to his/her first final. It will probably be their last!

I think better segregation is needed for future finals.

BlackRaven
15th October 2007, 14:26
If finalists only had east and west, there would be overspill into north and south anyway. Perhaps the finalists get north and south, leaving the rfl the east/west to sell to neutrals only.

Div
15th October 2007, 14:30
I think a move to a 3pm kick off would be a good idea.

mike
15th October 2007, 17:19
3pm kick off would be best all round and be more family friendly. It would give fans some daylight hours to get away from the ground. 6pm kick off times are an accident waiting to happen.

Syd
15th October 2007, 17:28
As I said on rlfans, I didnt see any bother. OK I had my head down for most of the game, and I was tired and in pain and really didnt want to be at the finaleven before kick off, but I am amazed I didnt see any of this trouble. Nothign outside the ground either.
I was amazed at the amoutn of Leeds fans in the West stand though, mind you there were Leeds fans everywhere you looked, seemed like a 2 - 1 ratio.

DD
15th October 2007, 17:32
I did not see any incidents at the GF last year, but I know they happened. Its like when you go a night out. You can stay around one part of town and see no trouble but there may be major fighting round the corner that you dont see. Thats what I was stating about them being "unreported", it keeps the bad news away from everyone.

The segregation would be sorted out by one set of fans being in the West stand and the others in the East Stand. Any other fan who supports another team would sit in the North/South stand. It would be no more harder to police than an FA Cup game at Utd where the away team brings 9500 fans. The kick off time was very nearly changed for this year, so I think there is more than a realistic chance of it being changed next year. It will spoil what should be a fantastic occasion, but unfortunately this is now just another fact of life. Its the first time that I have heard people stating that they will not go to another GF as a result.

Whilst this will eradicate the problems in the West and East Stands (except for those who were fighting amongst themselves) all this does is shift the problem to the North and South stands.

As stated, plenty of Saints and Leeds fans would have bought their tickets beforehand. In this case they would still all be sat amongst each other in the neutral sections.

Were most instances between Saints and Leeds fans anyway, or were they between Saints fans and others?

Whilst there may be some evidence to suggest that the nuggets would not be interested in going should their team not be there, there is enough evidence to suggest also that several of the incidents did involve people who would end up in the neutral area should your suggestion be implemented.

Moving the trouble from your area into mine, simply won't do! :)

DD
15th October 2007, 17:34
As I said on rlfans, I didnt see any bother. OK I had my head down for most of the game, and I was tired and in pain and really didnt want to be at the finaleven before kick off, but I am amazed I didnt see any of this trouble. Nothign outside the ground either.
I was amazed at the amoutn of Leeds fans in the West stand though, mind you there were Leeds fans everywhere you looked, seemed like a 2 - 1 ratio.

Were you ••••ed? lol

I was, but I still saw about half a dozen incidents, and have actually heard of at least one more serious incident that was witnessed by others.

Blobbynator
15th October 2007, 17:39
Were you ••••ed? lol

I was

No way! lol

DD
15th October 2007, 17:42
No way! lol

Listen sunshine, I only had a huge no smoking sticker on my back for five minutes as opposed to your one and a half hours in three different pubs. ;)

Blobbynator
15th October 2007, 17:45
:D

I left it there because I thought it was stylish. :cool:

Syd
15th October 2007, 17:47
Were you ••••ed? lol

I was, but I still saw about half a dozen incidents, and have actually heard of at least one more serious incident that was witnessed by others.

Not really, had a few ales, but just tired and not with it, just an emotional week for me and I didnt really want to be at the final, had my head resting on my hand for most the 80 minutes, beside the odd song. I didnt even see the woman get her tatties out, now thats the bit I am •••ign annoyed about mate.

Reacher
15th October 2007, 17:47
Dave, my real suggestion would be for the kick off time to be moved to a 3pm slot. I have a feeling it will anyway so should not be an issue. Fans should only be able to buy direct through their clubs, to ensure that they are with fans from their own side. It will help, more than hinder. You try and watch City at Utd and you wont be able to sit where you want. You will have to go in the away section. Why should finals be any different? I know I am biased but OT is a great ground with good views from everywhere.

Every year there has been more incidents, and something needs to be done. I am not suggesting that your mates cant sit with you because they support other clubs, as obviously they are not going to be causing trouble, but other fans after alcohol are not the same. If it turns out to be Sts fans fighting with each other then the early kick off time will help.

Its no coincidence that there has been less trouble at Utd/City Utd/Liverpool since the early kick off times. Let the neutrals buy from the RFL and sit with each other. If nothing else, the atmosphere wil be better as you are sat with your own fans. I thought the CC semi-final was a good atmosphere as we were all together at one end. I would hate to be sat at the side next to a Goon or Wire fan.

macaveli
15th October 2007, 18:00
I was in West Stand tier 2 and there were several Hull and Hull KR fans sat on my row and the row behind and a big group of Oldham fans in the next block about 3 rows down. There were a group of Saints fans about 4 rows down who started to cause the trouble with the Oldham fans and then the Hull fans. I think it started due to the other teams fans winding the Saints fans up or so called Saints fans.

It kicked off about 5 times either half and the stewards did nothing until the end. In the second half I went and sat in fron of the Hull fans and next to Hull KR fan and they were good lads to get on with, if you cannot accept a bit of banter then you are watching the wrong sport. Whilst sat there a lot of beer was thrown either way.... I started to get annoyed and made the comment why pay £6 for a beer and throw it away, a Saints fan then started to start to kick off with me so I made another comment as to why have you paid £21 for a ticket and spent most of your time looking this way... the game is down there!! A lot of familes and individuals sat round me agreed with what I said but again they wanted to fight!

It really spoiled my night even if we would have won something like would have spoiled my night. I will seriously consider not attending another Grand Final even if Saints get there, I dont go to watch rugby to be drenched in Budweiser and to be abused by so called fans of the same team!

These were also the same Saints fans that at half time were complaining that we weren't winning - another point I made was the game would be even if we hadn't missed a penalty what funkin more do you want?

Tomo73
15th October 2007, 22:18
My 5 year old son went to his first Grand Final on saturday having fully enjoyed the wembley experience and wanting to come.Tonight when telling his grandad about the night as they have been away he told him nothing of the game or the ground as you would expect from a kid.
His words were "at the game grandad we had to come out early as lots of people were fighting cause they had drunk beer.So dad says we won't be going again".
I find this sad that this is his memory of his first grand final, because it is only this last year he has started to want to come with us, we normally have to get grandparents to babysit him.I was made up to take both of my kids as my eldest is a season ticket holder and member,who loves saints and as been going to finals since he was 2.
As a family we have been looking forward to occassions like this to take the kids,both my wife and I are saints saints fans and have been for many years.

DD
15th October 2007, 22:18
Dave, my real suggestion would be for the kick off time to be moved to a 3pm slot. I have a feeling it will anyway so should not be an issue. Fans should only be able to buy direct through their clubs, to ensure that they are with fans from their own side. It will help, more than hinder. You try and watch City at Utd and you wont be able to sit where you want. You will have to go in the away section. Why should finals be any different? I know I am biased but OT is a great ground with good views from everywhere.

Every year there has been more incidents, and something needs to be done. I am not suggesting that your mates cant sit with you because they support other clubs, as obviously they are not going to be causing trouble, but other fans after alcohol are not the same. If it turns out to be Sts fans fighting with each other then the early kick off time will help.

Its no coincidence that there has been less trouble at Utd/City Utd/Liverpool since the early kick off times. Let the neutrals buy from the RFL and sit with each other. If nothing else, the atmosphere wil be better as you are sat with your own fans. I thought the CC semi-final was a good atmosphere as we were all together at one end. I would hate to be sat at the side next to a Goon or Wire fan.

This doesn't really address the full issue of the neutrals though, because how do we know who will be neutral until the week before the game? We have a mixed bag of supporters from across the league who want to sit with other fans, and have done so for years without bother. My team might get there, it might not. We cannot afford to wait till the last week in case we don't get there and it's all in chaos trying to get tickets then. Clearly then there are going to be a multitude of fans from the two participants in the same section.

Surely we should not be punishing thousands for the sake of a few idiots. i want to go anyway. if I buy my ticket beforehand, how do we know who will be in the final? How will they know where to seat you?

There has not been less trouble at football since the early kick off times in my experience. It's increased dramatically at derbies these days. There isn't trouble in the ground because of the segregation, as you point out, however a large number of incidents are now taking place away from grounds after games, hence the 300 or so involved in an all in brawl after May's Manchester derby outside the Apollo. Not to mention that violence is now heard of after Merseyside derby's in Liverpool's city centre at night, when people have been out all day after morning kick offs, and that was a match that never had any trouble until recently.

Owners of pubs in city centres now simply dread the derby day lunch time kick offs as they know what's going to happen later in the day. It merely shifts the problem from A to B.

I agree that a 3pm kick off would possibly be the best time to have it, and would fully support a move to that time, but with pubs now open at 9am, will it make that much difference?

To be honest I think we are going a bit over the top with all this. Segregation breeds a 'them and us' mentality that we do not want in Rugby League. It creates tribalism. It encourages hatred, it does not discourage it.

There is never any trouble at the Challenge Cup Final and the support is equally as mixed there these days. Segregation is not the answer. Your suggestion of a 3pm kick off would be a good start before we reach such drastic conclusions.

Reacher
15th October 2007, 22:36
We seem to have some good debates me and thee mucker, must be the Utd v City rivalry! I wont disclose facts on here as its not pertinent for everyone to read. Will pm you instead. I agree that we are possibly making the situation sound worse than it actually is. No doubt peoples emotions are running high so soon after the event.

Reacher
16th October 2007, 04:31
Looks like the papers are getting hold of this now....

http://www.sthelensstar.co.uk/display.var.1759407.0.fighting_fans_behaved_like_a nimals.php

scots saint
16th October 2007, 09:01
Poor stewarding at the G?F.

Too many "kids" getting tanked up in the several hours before the game.

Playing the game at 6pm, when an England footie game was on live in the pubs at 3pm

Too many saints fans whom forget that success breeds contempt in others, and we are the team whom everyone not only wants to beat, but actually see fail.

Poor allocation of tickets by the RFL, which allowed "away" fans easy access to the west stand.

I sat in the north stand with my family, surrounded by fans from all other clubs, without a hint of trouble. I'd suggest you perm any of the above as causes of the trouble that was eveident in certain areas of the crowd

retro74
16th October 2007, 09:45
It's strange how officially it was one of the best behaved Grand Finals.

As I said earlier I was in the NW quadrant and had a pretty decent view of the whole stretford end and I didn't see any trouble. I didn't see anything outside the ground either. Walked back to the coach in amongst a lot of Leeds fans at the atmosphere was fine.

RedVee Admin
16th October 2007, 10:38
As I said earlier I was in the NW quadrant and had a pretty decent view of the whole stretford end and I didn't see any trouble.
I applaud you. You were obviously watching the game.

daves
16th October 2007, 10:44
It's strange how officially it was one of the best behaved Grand Finals.

The RFL with it's head in the sand again.

retro74
16th October 2007, 11:00
I applaud you. You were obviously watching the game.

Well that's what we were there to do.

I feel for the people that ended up in the middle of the trouble. I hope to take my daughter to KR (and the new stadium) when she's old enough but I don't think I'll take her to a final any time soon.

I was surprised with what I read on here and rlfans, I came out of the ground disappointed but having still had a great day and having met a load of rivals fans that we had a drink with and wished good luck.

I must have been too focused on the game to realise what was going on around me.

DD
16th October 2007, 11:50
Too many "kids" getting tanked up in the several hours before the game.



Whilst being a full convert to the theory that no-one should be allowed to leave their house till they are 21, I must actually say, that the vast majority of bother I have seen or heard about involved people of the 30s and 40s bracket.

Billinge Lump
16th October 2007, 12:08
It's strange how officially it was one of the best behaved Grand Finals.

As I said earlier I was in the NW quadrant and had a pretty decent view of the whole stretford end and I didn't see any trouble. I didn't see anything outside the ground either. Walked back to the coach in amongst a lot of Leeds fans at the atmosphere was fine.


I saw trouble in the ground, but also walked back with no problem at all surrounded by Leeds fans.

mpw2081
16th October 2007, 12:28
Tonights events with the fans do not surprise me. I was thinking to myself "Who are these idiots fighting? Twice a year game attendees (all the finals) - but the club may get a £25,000 fine- because they treat it as a booze up and can't control themselves"

Unfortunately St Helens is a very rough town and many people don't know how to behave.

Just look at Church Street- newly re paved- but now full of chewing gum!!!

The town is a disgrace.


I'am sick of people who say twice a year attendees or only final supporters, maybe some people work shifts to earn a living and cannot make it to every home match, at the end of the day Saints does not pay for my mortgage or place clothes on my family. I am a valid saints supporter and would never slate them or any person but people must relise that circumstances hinder attendance to games. You don'y have to go to every game to be a true supporter, lets change this attitude from people on this forum. Lets be honest if somebody can show me that these twice a year supporters are responsible for the trouble i would be surprised.

Just Bad LOSERS in my option

scots saint
16th October 2007, 12:49
Whilst being a full convert to the theory that no-one should be allowed to leave their house till they are 21, I must actually say, that the vast majority of bother I have seen or heard about involved people of the 30s and 40s bracket.

"kids" (note the inverted commas) being with reference to their behavioural age, not their actual age.

The Greatest
16th October 2007, 12:54
I'am sick of people who say twice a year attendees or only final supporters, maybe some people work shifts to earn a living and cannot make it to every home match, at the end of the day Saints does not pay for my mortgage or place clothes on my family. I am a valid saints supporter and would never slate them or any person but people must relise that circumstances hinder attendance to games. You don'y have to go to every game to be a true supporter,

Very true, however somebody who goes to absolutely no games at all....0....zip.....zilch and then goes to the finals is not a true supporter. I agree with you about the other factors like mortgages and kids etc. I have them too and thats why I cant go to loads of games but I dont turn up to zero games at all then go to the finals and brand myself as a true supporter, loyal fan and "Saints until I die"

mpw2081
16th October 2007, 13:42
Very true, however somebody who goes to absolutely no games at all....0....zip.....zilch and then goes to the finals is not a true supporter. I agree with you about the other factors like mortgages and kids etc. I have them too and thats why I cant go to loads of games but I dont turn up to zero games at all then go to the finals and brand myself as a true supporter, loyal fan and "Saints until I die"

I don't want to argue with you but this reasoning does not help the game and alienates supporters and fans alike. You must see that i presume some supporters are unable to attend matches, possibly living abroad and when Saints do make a final they make a special occassion and take the time and alot of money to attend these matches to support their team. I cannot see my uncle in Australia attending to see Saints play another super league team for one home match, but if he did would he then be classed as a supporter and true fan. I know he watches as many Saints games as he can at home.:D and as you say a SAINTS Until he Dies

Saints like other teams needs support when it counts at home, away and finals (even if we lose), the only reason we play rugby is to be the best at what they do. Not so long ago, not on a planet far,far away, Saints played at Wembley, it was not to capacity and could have done with a few more fans who only attend the finals to attend to show you don't have to go to every game to apprecaite th best Rugby team in the world.

i hope i clarified my points and reasons:D

Saint of Hull
16th October 2007, 14:57
I like to stand up at games but out of respect to others that don;t try not to stnad too much.

Fair enough I was up and down like a yo-yo for the last 20 minutes trying to get people up for it but didn't stand when Leeds scored - as I couldn't bear to!!

Last 10 minutes a couple of guys (3 rows behind!!) decide to start abusing me for standing up!!

I'm unbelievabley placid and still ignored them wehn they started to shove me.

Don't know who their team was but no need. Even a laugh and a hand shake wouldn't do it.

RobyGerrard
17th October 2007, 00:41
Take my young sons with me to KR regularly & is usually no problem.

Problems do come at the big games (i.e Warrington, Pies, Leeds, Bulls, Finals)when the big game p***heads come out to play.

To all those Saints fans who are bored with us winning so much can I make a comparison with my football watching days; as a Liverpool supporter (go on ...shoot me)I was there when we last won the 1st Division (Prem as is) & take it from me, I didn't think that we wouldn't win it again for 17 years (& counting).

Is winning 7 trophies in 2 seasons not entertaining enough for you - plus Men of Steel for the last 3 years. Need I go on ?

What I'm trying to say is YOU'VE NEVER HAD IT SO GOOD & make the most of it 'cos you never know when it'll end.

Big game Charlies - stop getting p***ed, swearing & ranting & scaring the kids !!!
Get down to KR & support Saints v. Wakey, Quins etc..

topteam
17th October 2007, 19:29
i sat in the 2nd tier in the north stand i didnt see any trouble

The Wee Waa Womble
17th October 2007, 23:22
When you get tickets thru the RFL they put you anywhere sometimes regardless of your team. You should have had Saints end and leeds end with separate bits for neutrals.