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Wizards Sleeve
11th October 2007, 14:54
I've looked everywhere for the answer to this and can't find it anywhere. Maybe someone can help me.

A football fan in work asked me, Why are Rugby League shirts synonimous with a vee? Or vice versa even. All the major Test playing nations wear a vee and an aweful lot of the famous clubs from the past wore vee's too.

Saints obviously, but over the years there have been Barrow, Bradford, Castleford, Catalans, Dewsbury, Fulham, Halifax, Hull, Keighley, Leeds, Swinton, Warrington, Whitehaven, Workington and York. ( There are probably more and that's just in England ). There are plenty of NRL clubs that wear or have worn a vee too.

I know some clubs may have only kept it for a season or two ( like Hull ), but still they wore it. I cannot think of any other sport in the world where the vee is used as commonly as Rugby League. Maybe Horse Racing.. Maybe!

Does anyone know the answer? Or who wore it first? Looking at the kits for the Northern Union match. It looks as though we played in all white that day and The All Golds played in All Black. Although it was still union for them in those days. So when did it start? And why Rugby League? :confused: :confused:

Saint Bert
11th October 2007, 14:58
United wore white with a red vee in the 1920's.

bet the mickies love that LOL

Wizards Sleeve
11th October 2007, 15:09
United wore white with a red vee in the 1920's.

bet the mickies love that LOL

I remember Airdrie in Scotland wore the Saints kit too. Bought the Subbuteo football Airdrie before Subbuteo rugby came out just so I could be St.Helens when playing with my dad. Gave him Preston or something so he could be Widnes.

But seriously, does anyone know why it's so popular in RL?

Scouse Don
11th October 2007, 16:01
Makes your shoulders look bigger ......but not if your Barry Ward !!

saint-hamlett
11th October 2007, 16:03
Between the U and the W

Wizards Sleeve
11th October 2007, 16:11
Just had a thought. Could it be a very large 'V' to Union?

DD
11th October 2007, 16:15
This question came up on RL Fans not so long back and someone did come up with an answer.

Alas, I can't remember what it was! :)

Wizards Sleeve
11th October 2007, 17:07
This question came up on RL Fans not so long back and someone did come up with an answer.

Alas, I can't remember what it was! :)

Thanks for that Dave :???:
Anyway, whilst your on. The same mate who asked me the vee question is a City fan like yourself. Bless him.
He doesn't know why City have 3 stars included in their badge. I'm off home now but maybe you could help a bit better with that one.

Saint Bert
11th October 2007, 17:11
Because they went down to 3rd Division?

warringtonsaint
11th October 2007, 17:12
Makes your shoulders look bigger ......but not if your Barry Ward !!

I'm sure I've heard that explanation too - supposed to make the shoulders look big and tapering towards the waist.

As you say, Barry Ward was never going to benefit from whatever pattern lol

Slightly O/T but I think the reason Leeds Utd started to play in all white was to make them look like Real Madrid..............as much chance as Bary Ward in a Vee etc.............

Saint Bert
11th October 2007, 17:14
I'm sure I've heard that explanation too - supposed to make the shoulders look big and tapering towards the waist.

As you say, Barry Ward was never going to benefit from whatever pattern lol

Slightly O/T but I think the reason Leeds Utd started to play in all white was to make them look like Real Madrid..............as much chance as Bary Ward in a Vee etc.............

Have Leeds got 3 stars on their shirts this season.

DD
11th October 2007, 17:17
Slightly O/T but I think the reason Leeds Utd started to play in all white was to make them look like Real Madrid..............as much chance as Bary Ward in a Vee etc.............

Correct. Saints took the vee to look like St. George.

Leeds United changed from blue and amber to all white to look like Real Madrid.

City had the red and black striped shirt to look like AC Milan (Malcolm Allison tried to get us to adopt this as a home shirt!)

City adopted three stars because they thought they looked nice!

The vee and hoops are very common in Rugby League, yet both are rarely used in football.

Lots of clubs adopted colours from racing colours. Maybe that had something to do with it. That is certainly where the oft seen claret with blue sleeves comes from.

Big ST.MARK
11th October 2007, 19:16
Could be wrong, but thought that St Helens donated a kit to the St George club in Aus after a letter was sent round the english clubs asking for donations etc when they were in need. This being the reason St George still sport the famous Red Vee. Can't remember where I got that from though.

Sadfish
11th October 2007, 19:35
Could be wrong, but thought that St Helens donated a kit to the St George club in Aus after a letter was sent round the english clubs asking for donations etc when they were in need. This being the reason St George still sport the famous Red Vee. Can't remember where I got that from though.

wrong way round my friend.

Big ST.MARK
11th October 2007, 19:42
Fair enough thanks for the heads up!

Reacher
11th October 2007, 21:43
Thanks for that Dave :???:
Anyway, whilst your on. The same mate who asked me the vee question is a City fan like yourself. Bless him.
He doesn't know why City have 3 stars included in their badge. I'm off home now but maybe you could help a bit better with that one.

3 stars = average home attendance when not playing united?? ;)

Sausalito
11th October 2007, 22:03
Think if you dig deep enough you'll find Saints largest shareholder in the 50's and early 60's was Bob Collins, the largest Bookmaker in St Helens, whose racing colours were the Red Vee and were adopted by the Saints at he's suggestion.
:saint: :saint:

Latham
11th October 2007, 22:10
sure the 'V' doesnt stand for Victory? I heard that once before somewhere, and at the time made sense. :???:

Arthur Bitter
12th October 2007, 00:58
Consider second strip design black with white V 1959/60; easy transformation to white and red vee for 1961 cc final?

Sausalito
12th October 2007, 02:05
I've looked everywhere for the answer to this and can't find it anywhere. Maybe someone can help me.

A football fan in work asked me, Why are Rugby League shirts synonimous with a vee? Or vice versa even. All the major Test playing nations wear a vee and an aweful lot of the famous clubs from the past wore vee's too.

Saints obviously, but over the years there have been Barrow, Bradford, Castleford, Catalans, Dewsbury, Fulham, Halifax, Hull, Keighley, Leeds, Swinton, Warrington, Whitehaven, Workington and York. ( There are probably more and that's just in England ). There are plenty of NRL clubs that wear or have worn a vee too.

I know some clubs may have only kept it for a season or two ( like Hull ), but still they wore it. I cannot think of any other sport in the world where the vee is used as commonly as Rugby League. Maybe Horse Racing.. Maybe!

Does anyone know the answer? Or who wore it first? Looking at the kits for the Northern Union match. It looks as though we played in all white that day and The All Golds played in All Black. Although it was still union for them in those days. So when did it start? And why Rugby League? :confused: :confused:

Think you'll find Barrow had a Vee first.;)

These are the original colours of teams before they started wearing a Vee shirt.

Bradford, white with 3 thin bands red, black and amber.
Castleford all gold with black collar.
Dewsbury red, black and amber bands.
Halifax blue and white bands.
Keighley blue, white and black bands.
Leeds Blue with broad amber hoop and two thin amber bands.
Swinton blue with white collar.
Warrington similar to Leeds.
Whitehaven blue and white bands/blue with white collar.
Workington white with broad blue band
York old gold and chocalate bands
Salford red with white collar
Wigan cherry and white bands
Widnes black and white bands
Featherstone blue black and white bands
HKR white with broad red band
Rochdale red white and blue bands
Olham red and white bands
Hunslet Myrtle and flame bands
Bramey chocolate and gold bands
Batley blue and white bands
Leigh red and white bands:eek: :eek:

ploughman
12th October 2007, 08:37
for wembley in 1961,saints moved from the traditional red band to a red v.this was to copy st.george who at the time were in the middle of their run of consecutive grand final wins in the australian comp.this was only meant to be as a one off,but was adopted on a permanent basis the next season.
i suggest the v originated in australia,hence the reason no soccer clubs use it here,but thats only a thought

Wizards Sleeve
12th October 2007, 10:24
I seem to remember GB using it in Test Matches a long time before club sides did. Maybe GB wore it and the design caught on. I'd just love to know who wore it first and why. I think the V for victory sounds like a good reason and like I mentioned earlier, could it be a two fingered salute to our friends in Union? If GB were the first to use it in an international, there would be every reason for the 'up yours' to the RFU as they couldn't see our game progressing, especially to international level.

Saint Bert
12th October 2007, 10:42
i suggest the v originated in australia,hence the reason no soccer clubs use it here,but thats only a thought

Manchester United used it in the 20's, it is still used at a couple of british clubs today!

Saints-Crusaders
12th October 2007, 12:09
Manchester United used it in the 20's, it is still used at a couple of british clubs today!


One of the scottish clubs (i think its Airdrie) wears/wore a white kit with red vee on it, although i dont think they have 5 gold stars on their kit lol

Mr Turncoat
12th October 2007, 12:27
Manchester United used it in the 20's, it is still used at a couple of british clubs today!
And by FC Girondins de Bordeaux in France.

Sausalito
12th October 2007, 12:41
Look at my earlier post, the first team to wear a VEE were Barrow.
Bob Collins Paid the winning Bonus at Wembley and the Saints wore his racing colours. Nowt to do with St George.:???: :???:

warringtonsaint
12th October 2007, 13:16
I'd be very surprised if it had anything to do with the V for Victory sign, which only came into common use during World War 2. As people have already mentioned, kits with a Vee were worn prior to that (see AT's mention of 1920's Man U kit for example)

The 2 fingered salute used as an insult dates back to Agincourt in 1415 when the English archers showed the French that they were still able to draw their bows despite the French threat to cut off the fingers of any captured English bowmen. Don't think though that a reason to wear RL kits with a Vee would be to insult RU.:???:

Anyway, history lesson over - let's hope the Saints create a bit more history tomorrow!! :D

PS - I'm still pretty sure that it has to do with making the shoulders of players look bigger, hence intimidating their opponents, but can't find any definitive reference to this anywhere unfortunately. I definitely read it somewhere once though!

ploughman
12th October 2007, 13:19
wheres bill bates when you need him?

volls_dad
12th October 2007, 13:38
for wembley in 1961,saints moved from the traditional red band to a red v.this was to copy st.george who at the time were in the middle of their run of consecutive grand final wins in the australian comp.this was only meant to be as a one off,but was adopted on a permanent basis the next season.
i suggest the v originated in australia,hence the reason no soccer clubs use it here,but thats only a thought


You are 5 years out! Saints didn't adopt the Red V as their shirt until the 1966/67 season - if I remember correctly the choice of colour of shirt for the 1961 Final was drawn out of a hat, and we got white the Pies got red... we may well have added the red vee to look like St George! Same thing happened in 1966 and it was the following season that the red band was replaced by the red vee. From memory (which might easily be wrong!) I don't recall Saints playing in the red vee in any match between the 1961 and 1966 cup finals.

ploughman
12th October 2007, 13:52
as the man said in orthopedic shoes
i stand corrected

Kakariki
12th October 2007, 14:07
PS - I'm still pretty sure that it has to do with making the shoulders of players look bigger, hence intimidating their opponents, but can't find any definitive reference to this anywhere unfortunately. I definitely read it somewhere once though!


I think you're probably right. It's along the lines of the reason given why many rugby shirts are hooped (eg Wigan, Hull) and football shirts striped (Newcastle, Sunderland).

Hoops give an impression of being slim and pacy (more suited to footballers) and hoops give the impression of being large and more intimidating.

RedVee Admin
13th October 2007, 11:25
Look at my earlier post, the first team to wear a VEE were Barrow.
We saw that, what do you want us to do?

Sausalito
13th October 2007, 11:57
We saw that, what do you want us to do?

Nothing, but people are still harping on about it.:???:

coffee
13th October 2007, 18:10
had a look around the web found this .... seems to date to 1909 aussie rules game , scroll down and there is a pic . hope its of some help.


http://www.swansblog.com/archives/2005/08/