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dufc4
9th October 2007, 15:07
That company is a joke. Heard this morning theres another strike next week :mad: . How are people supposed to run a business when theres no ••••ing mail. Not a happy chappy :o

Beetle!
9th October 2007, 15:32
That company is a joke. Heard this morning theres another strike next week :mad: . How are people supposed to run a business when theres no ••••ing mail. Not a happy chappy :o

Yes RM as a company is a joke, how do you think i feel, lost at least 200 quid in the last few days of strike action, and we are still NOWHERE near getting a satisfactory deal.

I'm sure you have other things to be getting on with to continue making money, if not you havent got much of a business have you?

Birchwood Saint Sean
9th October 2007, 15:41
well im waiting for exam certificates witch thanks to the strike action are sat in some royal mail depot till the postman turns up at like 4-5 in evening when hes finished striking what happened to regular post at 8-9 o clock in morn and incase your wondering why i need my exam certificates i cant finish my sia licence application without um grrrrr

Saint Bert
9th October 2007, 15:45
Don't let them grind you down Beetle, the strike has been a right Royal Pain in the Aris for me, both personally and business wise, however sometimes direct action is the only thing that can be done.

What would be the point of a strike that did not have an effect? Companies would just laugh at not having to pay out wages!

Perhaps a bit more solidarity should be the order of the day, I remember paying for Chips for the lads on the picket line, not a lot but the sentiment was appreciated and re-paid 100 fold over the subsequent months.

I am sure any decent lad from the FB/George will shout you a pint on Saturday captain.

What goes around, goes around. That right Alf ?

saintyick
9th October 2007, 18:12
It is frustrating for people expecting post.

But.......

I agree with the strike action and hope they get what they deserve.

Chin up beetle like Al Said! :D

alf wayliner
9th October 2007, 19:39
I am sure any decent lad from the FB/George will shout you a pint on Saturday captain.

What goes around, goes around. That right Alf ?
Spot on, I'll certainly buy a pint for any striking CWU member who I bump into on Saturday.

Doc Green
9th October 2007, 19:40
I concur with Tez. I don't mind waiting a few days for post no matter how urgent.

are you blind ref
9th October 2007, 19:48
Just make sure everyones Grand Final tickets arrive on time ;)

Shakespeare
9th October 2007, 20:01
Beetle! Sort yourself out you lazy bum!

You were telling me the other day that you dont even know what its about. You just fancied some Xbox 360 time! Get a proper job!

alf wayliner
9th October 2007, 20:08
well im waiting for exam certificates witch thanks to the strike action are sat in some royal mail depot till the postman turns up at like 4-5 in evening when hes finished striking what happened to regular post at 8-9 o clock in morn and incase your wondering why i need my exam certificates i cant finish my sia licence application without um grrrrr
Wow what happened to the anger management techniques you're supposed to learn at bouncer school! Maybe that stiffkit was awarded too soon?

Take a chill pill and a few deep breaths, if you think that posties can afford to lose pay like this just because they want to mess people about then think again.

And the reason the regular post has disappeared and deliveries are fecked is down to the management at RM and is one of the reasons why the strike is happening. Believe you me this isn't about posties being greedy it's about protection of a public service as well as terms and conditions for the workers in that service.

Birchwood Saint Sean
9th October 2007, 20:33
i am relaxed im just wound up that they cant sort it out like adults wonder if royal mail will go the same way as the coal mines

roby lights up my senses
9th October 2007, 20:42
Just make sure everyones Grand Final tickets arrive on time

:p Havent got mine yet :confused: but the postmans always at the farm in the morning when i get there so unless they've come and i havent noticed.

alf wayliner
9th October 2007, 21:16
i am relaxed im just wound up that they cant sort it out like adults wonder if royal mail will go the same way as the coal mines
Well no because there will always be a need to deliver something to someone in the less populated areas and there ain't any money in doing that so the likes of TNT etc won't take that kind of thing on board, hence it ain't a truly liberalised market. if the government wants equality of access then it should allow RM to drop the universal service obligation or force the others to undertake some of the responsibility for the social side of the public service. It's a bit of an anachronism that we have a "socialist" government that is hell bent in liberalisation of the mail service (against it's own election manifesto) whilst the neo liberals of Europe are pulling the reins on the rush to open up the mail market over there.

CWU and it's members are fully supportive of the need for modernisation but it can't be solely at the expense of the workforce. RM (and the government as sole shareholder) have been happy to take pensions holidays, ploughing the savings into the treasury for years but now want to penalise the staff by attacking their pensions which are, after all, deferred pay. The money that RM took during it's pension holidays could have funded modernisation on a major scale and set RM up as a 21st Century carrier that could have competed, not only in this country, but could have turned the tables on the interlopers into our domestic market by taking on the likes of Deutsche Post and the like on their own midden!

are you blind ref
9th October 2007, 21:16
:p Havent got mine yet :confused: but the postmans always at the farm in the morning when i get there so unless they've come and i havent noticed.


Well I've got my email confirmation and they've got my money so the seats are mine even if the tickets don't arrive. Problem is, if they try to deliver them Thursday or Friday there won't be anyone in :( Still, I can understand why they are striking.

Birchwood Saint Sean
9th October 2007, 21:29
i can sort of agree just from my point of view the service has been getting worst and prices going up and up tho its not the lil people its the fat cats tho they could have more respect for my property and my mail if we ask them not to walk on the garden then we expect them not to do so and if summat says do not bend i expect it not to be bent the best one is we tryed to deliver a package and you wherent in lil card funnily enough i was walking past the mail box at the time :???:

alf wayliner
9th October 2007, 23:17
i can sort of agree just from my point of view the service has been getting worst and prices going up and up tho its not the lil people its the fat cats tho they could have more respect for my property and my mail if we ask them not to walk on the garden then we expect them not to do so and if summat says do not bend i expect it not to be bent the best one is we tryed to deliver a package and you wherent in lil card funnily enough i was walking past the mail box at the time :???:
I can't speak for every occurence of bad practice by posties but what I will say is that the single daily delivery (SDD), which was introduced by Crozier and Leighton despite the misgivings of the CWU, is inherently liable to produce the kind of behaviours you mention. Currently CWU are encouraging it's membership to do the job properly and not cut corners, thereby preventing occurences of this kind.

As it stands now many, many people on rounds are picking up mail in their own vehicles or going out overloaded just so that they don't waste time wating for drop offs by the mail van on their route. When they do carry mail in their cars then technically they leave themselves open to voiding their insurance cover and if they go out overloaded they leave themselves open to injury , both practices are encouraged by a management attitude that says get it done as quickly as possible regardless.


Interesting thing about prices, the postal service for the likes of us is actually subsidised by the large business mailings, the United Utilities, BTs and British Gas are the ones that actually pay the price for all us lesser mortals getting the delivery of a morning. When you think about getting a letter sent from anywhere in the country and delivered by hand within a day or two for a matter of around 30p it represents fantastic value. But if it is to be a truly free market then perhaps the smaller punters (and unless you're pumping out hundreds if not thousands of items of post a day you're a small punter) should actually fund the modernisation process by paying a realistic price for the mail.

RedVee Admin
9th October 2007, 23:17
i am relaxed im just wound up that they cant sort it out like adults wonder if royal mail will go the same way as the coal mines
It's possible while Bitch Thatcher is still alive.

Birchwood Saint Sean
9th October 2007, 23:55
ive just relised im not gonna get my disability giro tommrow as well need money too :(

maledon
10th October 2007, 03:30
ive just relised im not gonna get my disability giro tommrow as well need money too :(

For what?

You're taking the SIA course but claiming disability. Typical sponger then!
Sick of paying taxes for idiots like you to laugh at everyone else.
Stop claiming for made up illnesses and get a job.Everyone else manages it so why can't you?

zelt
10th October 2007, 03:55
Until about 5 years or so ago, mail was delivered where I live at about 8am and there was a second delivery around noon. At the local post box there were three collections: early in the morning, noon and in the evening.

Now, we get one delivery usually at about 1pm and one collection from the post box at 5pm (although it seems they just turn up whenever they feel like).

The service has definitely gone downhill in a big way in the past few years and I think that is why a lot of people are not very sympathetic to the strike action.

Saint Bert
10th October 2007, 08:45
Until about 5 years or so ago, mail was delivered where I live at about 8am and there was a second delivery around noon. At the local post box there were three collections: early in the morning, noon and in the evening.

Now, we get one delivery usually at about 1pm and one collection from the post box at 5pm (although it seems they just turn up whenever they feel like).

The service has definitely gone downhill in a big way in the past few years and I think that is why a lot of people are not very sympathetic to the strike action.

Which is ironic in the extreme considering it is the management and not the workers who have brought in those changes :???:

I wonder how some people on here would feel, having 20 years service in and then being told your retirement has been put back 5 years and your pension after that has been reduced not increased for your extra service.

wellosgal
10th October 2007, 09:43
Aren't you suppose to pick your Grand Final tickets up from OT if they are ordered from RFL? Thats what I read on The RFL website????

DD
10th October 2007, 10:35
For what?

You're taking the SIA course but claiming disability. Typical sponger then!
Sick of paying taxes for idiots like you to laugh at everyone else.
Stop claiming for made up illnesses and get a job.Everyone else manages it so why can't you?

Why is it all your stupid posts are after midnight? Or am I answering my own question here?

DD
10th October 2007, 10:55
As an aside from this issue. I think the postal strike will hit the Grand Final gate by a few thousand this year.

A lot of people simply won't bother with all the hassle of the inevitable three hour queue at the ticket office on Grand Final day, to collect their tickets, when they would normally have been able to receive them by post. Many do book when they know who the final is between and, in this case, they cannot receive them by post.

As ever, it's the innocent who get hit more by strikes than those they intend to hurt.

The Greatest
10th October 2007, 11:06
For what?

You're taking the SIA course but claiming disability. Typical sponger then!
Sick of paying taxes for idiots like you to laugh at everyone else.
Stop claiming for made up illnesses and get a job.Everyone else manages it so why can't you?

spot the brain donor

alf wayliner
10th October 2007, 11:10
Here's one for you, posties in Liverpool turned up for work at 5:30 this morning, which is their normal start time, but management wouldn't allow them to start work till 6:00 as this is the time that RM want to introduce under the flexibility arrangements. So here we have the Posties looking to get in there and get started working and getting mail out as soon as possible to the hard pressed punters and RM won't let them get on with it, in effect imposing their unagreed terms despite a formal industrial dispute. Result is the posties have now walked out on unnofficial action ,which I think may well spread. There is also a side issue about taking mail out in private vehicles as well but the start time is the main issue.

Birchwood Saint Sean
10th October 2007, 11:26
i get disability for depression if i can get it why turn it down after all theres theres far worst spongers than me if the goverment offered you 70 quid a month no quibbles would you go no ta im too pround plus i get that no matter how many hours i work

Sadfish
10th October 2007, 11:42
Here's one for you, posties in Liverpool turned up for work at 5:30 this morning, which is their normal start time, but management wouldn't allow them to start work till 6:00 as this is the time that RM want to introduce under the flexibility arrangements. So here we have the Posties looking to get in there and get started working and getting mail out as soon as possible to the hard pressed punters and RM won't let them get on with it, in effect imposing their unagreed terms despite a formal industrial dispute. Result is the posties have now walked out on unnofficial action ,which I think may well spread. There is also a side issue about taking mail out in private vehicles as well but the start time is the main issue.
You know Alf, i've known you a long time and respect your views, but here's a little ditty for you, I work for a international bank, if me and my colleagues decided to strike and your wages didnt go in for a week or maybe two, or all your bills didnt get paid for a couple of weeks or you couldnt draw any money out of the holes in the walls or buy any food? how would you feel?

Of course, I don't go on strike because i'd get the sack for not coming into work, of course, when people in my industry get made redundant due to outsourcing overseas or the like no one seems to care.

Now I do care about people and the livelihoods but imo striking isnt the answer, i'm firmly of the opinion that if my employer wants to alter my hours or place of work, then they can, when all said and done i'm working for them, if I don't like it then, I have to go and work elsewhere.

This is just something people in my industry have to put up with, our unions are cack and to be honest always have been and therefore its up to us employees to chose "is this the employer I want to work for?".

If I had my way i'd have posties working through the evening delivering because the amount of times i'm at work when they wanna deliver my tickets is a joke.

As I said, I don't like emplyers walking all over their employees, but imagine the mess the country would be in if people in my line of work went on strike. We don't because we know it isn't fair to those people who rely on us. The Royal MAil is already struggling to break into this century, its only a matter of time before it goes under , and the current crisis is depening its situation and there is a real possiblity that the company could go bust and "everyone" will be out of work, the company is trying to streamline its operation and make it profitable so it can survive and grow into the future.

I'm really of the opinion that striking is the last bastion of 70s britain, it serves no purpose except putting out the general public, and how much is it costing the posties in wages? Does it weigh up that they'll lose 2 weeks wages for the sake of coming in 15 mins later each day?

I doubt it does.

The Greatest
10th October 2007, 11:53
i get disability for depression if i can get it why turn it down after all theres theres far worst spongers than me if the goverment offered you 70 quid a month no quibbles would you go no ta im too pround plus i get that no matter how many hours i work

just ignore the knob mate.

RedVee Admin
10th October 2007, 11:57
Why is it all your stupid posts are after midnight? Or am I answering my own question here?
Watch out, you'll get sued for saying that.

Saint Bert
10th October 2007, 12:20
Now I do care about people and the livelihoods but imo striking isnt the answer, i'm firmly of the opinion that if my employer wants to alter my hours or place of work, then they can, when all said and done i'm working for them, if I don't like it then, I have to go and work elsewhere.

Not everyone has the skill set to be able to have their pick of jobs

This is just something people in my industry have to put up with, our unions are cack and to be honest always have been and therefore its up to us employees to chose "is this the employer I want to work for?".

A union is only as strong as it's members, your attitude if followed by all your collegues is the reason you have a cack union.

If I had my way i'd have posties working through the evening delivering because the amount of times i'm at work when they wanna deliver my tickets is a joke.

I'd love to see your face being woken at 4 AM for a recorded delivery! lol

As I said, I don't like emplyers walking all over their employees, but imagine the mess the country would be in if people in my line of work went on strike. We don't because we know it isn't fair to those people who rely on us.

So you wouldn't consider industrial action of any kind should you feel stringly enough aggrieved because it wouldn't be fair to the general public? Sorry Paul that's bo11ocks.

The Royal Mail is already struggling to break into this century, its only a matter of time before it goes under , and the current crisis is depening its situation and there is a real possiblity that the company could go bust and "everyone" will be out of work, the company is trying to streamline its operation and make it profitable so it can survive and grow into the future.

That maybe the case, but without getting into a debate on the "unfair restrictions" on Royal mail is a side issue to the reason for strike action. If it was purely about pay and an unreasonable increase request I would agree with you but it isn't. Would you agree now to work 5 years loger than you planned for a reduced pension? I doubt it, but you have already said, they can just get another job if they don't like it, even if they are approaching 60, it's easy. :???:

I'm really of the opinion that striking is the last bastion of 70s britain, it serves no purpose except putting out the general public, and how much is it costing the posties in wages? Does it weigh up that they'll lose 2 weeks wages for the sake of coming in 15 mins later each day?

If the working classes would have had the same view 100 years ago, you would still be doing a 60 hour week with a weeks holiday if you were lucky instead of holding all the privilages your position does.

I doubt it does.

Rant over, I just wish that this everyman for himself I don't care about anyone else attitude that has become the norm in this country since the mid 80's would go away.

Perhaps when the b1tch dies, but then again. Don't forget people, street party when it happens, DIv and Alf ar bringing the sausage rolls. lol

The Greatest
10th October 2007, 13:29
Rant over, I just wish that this everyman for himself I don't care about anyone else attitude that has become the norm in this country since the mid 80's would go away.


So if I am happy with my contract terms why should I be bullied into strike action because other people are unhappy? Some people will make the best of what they have and others will ALWAYS moan no matter what. Why should I (and more importantly my kids) suffer because of the moaners. If someone has been dismissed unfairly or is being victimised then yes, Im all for solidarity and looking after each other, however some of the arguments between employers and employees are petty and as a rational person I shouldnt suffer.

alf wayliner
10th October 2007, 13:41
You know Alf, i've known you a long time and respect your views, but here's a little ditty for you, I work for a international bank, if me and my colleagues decided to strike and your wages didnt go in for a week or maybe two, or all your bills didnt get paid for a couple of weeks or you couldnt draw any money out of the holes in the walls or buy any food? how would you feel?

Of course, I don't go on strike because i'd get the sack for not coming into work, of course, when people in my industry get made redundant due to outsourcing overseas or the like no one seems to care.

Now I do care about people and the livelihoods but imo striking isnt the answer, i'm firmly of the opinion that if my employer wants to alter my hours or place of work, then they can, when all said and done i'm working for them, if I don't like it then, I have to go and work elsewhere.

This is just something people in my industry have to put up with, our unions are cack and to be honest always have been and therefore its up to us employees to chose "is this the employer I want to work for?".

If I had my way i'd have posties working through the evening delivering because the amount of times i'm at work when they wanna deliver my tickets is a joke.

As I said, I don't like emplyers walking all over their employees, but imagine the mess the country would be in if people in my line of work went on strike. We don't because we know it isn't fair to those people who rely on us. The Royal MAil is already struggling to break into this century, its only a matter of time before it goes under , and the current crisis is depening its situation and there is a real possiblity that the company could go bust and "everyone" will be out of work, the company is trying to streamline its operation and make it profitable so it can survive and grow into the future.

I'm really of the opinion that striking is the last bastion of 70s britain, it serves no purpose except putting out the general public, and how much is it costing the posties in wages? Does it weigh up that they'll lose 2 weeks wages for the sake of coming in 15 mins later each day?

I doubt it does.
Paul, if I had my way we'd have no need for bankers - international, merchant or whatever, maybe I'm just a stick in the mud marxist (all right no maybe about it really;) )

Anyway am I reading what you say wrong, are you saying that we shouldn't stand up for our rights, that when the employer has the ultimate sanction of removing you from your employment that you too shouldn't have the legal right to react in a like manner. Are you saying that because an employer has money and power they should be allowed to take whatever action they see fit on the basis that profit is everything. Are you saying that because you and your colleagues won't stand up for yourselves that others, who are prepared to stand together to defend their RIGHTS, shouldn't do it


I currently represent a number of people who work on IP maintenance and setup (for a large international banking company BTW) half their work has been remote sourced to India and we agreed that on the basis that there would be guarantees about other work areas. Suddenly the employer has now decided to unilaterally ship a significant chunk of the remaining work, without notice never mind consultation or agreement. So I am fully supportive of the defence against jobs being shipped out to the lowest cost region.

If you went on strike for legitimate reasons I'd be the first to back you to the extent that I'd be happy to put up with the hardships. Perhaps if the finance sector could actually get together and have some sense of unity it would be the one area that could actually bring some sense into a world that wants to have a free market place and yet insists on protectionism and interventionism when it suits. If we are serious about competition in the postal industry why is the royal mail lumbered with the universal service obligation? as long as that is in place it can never hope to be truly "profitable" and big business contracts will always subsidise your delivery. The royal mail is not a company as such, it is a wholly government owned entitiy, it will not go bust due to the fact that there is no profit in setting mail delivery services in rural areas the same as the cable companies have a density threshold where they won't cable due to lack of a chance to make money, the profitable areas of the business will be given to private companies and the rest will be subsidised by us. But once again I have to say that Royal Mail for many years has had a holiday from paying into the staff pension fund to the tune of billions of pounds. Money that could have been invested in to the service years ago, now RM want to alter the terms and conditions of the pension fund and, in effect, make the staff pay. Why should someone who has a legal contract with somone suddenly have that contract rewritten without regard. What would happen if I said the same thing to my bank, sorry Mr Lloydstsb but I'm not paying the interest on my credit card that I agreed in that contract I signed!


The attitude that says the employer can do what they want is a road to anarchy, it says that there is no protection in law for anyone, a contract isn't a contract. You're saying that I can accept a job and plan a life based around receiving an agreed wage and then the employer can turn round and say "sorry mate you're not getting it", now my bank would love that wouldn't they all those people caught up in the race to the bottom on an ever decreasing wage and conditions spiral, defaulting on mortgages.


As I've said before if you beleive a postie, who is on such a poor basic wage that means that the only way to have any savings for retirement is his pension, should suddenly find that he is going to be forced to work beyond his CONTRACTUAL retirement age and see his benefits reduced has the option of quitting and finding somewhere else where he can acrue similar benefits then you've gravely misread the employment market. 5 years loss of pension at 3 or 4 grand a year plus additional pension contributions for those 5 years perhaps another 5 grand and add in any loss of accruals and it amounts to a considerable sum of money that they are losing.

Ultimatley no one in CWU is denying the modernisation aspects and we realise that there will be a price to pay in regards to loss of jobs and changes in working practices and new technology, we aren't looking to shirk the responsiblity that lies with the employees what we are saying is that the staff should not have to pay the cost for years and years of mismanagement and under investment. Let the Royal Mail compete equally with private enterprise or don't let anyone compete, cherry picking of profitable areas of business is not a free market.

Saint Bert
10th October 2007, 13:48
So if I am happy with my contract terms why should I be bullied into strike action because other people are unhappy? Some people will make the best of what they have and others will ALWAYS moan no matter what. Why should I (and more importantly my kids) suffer because of the moaners. If someone has been dismissed unfairly or is being victimised then yes, Im all for solidarity and looking after each other, however some of the arguments between employers and employees are petty and as a rational person I shouldnt suffer.

Isn't that the point of a ballot?

Or are you advocating the I'm allright at this moment in time Jack, feck you, but will you please help me when I have a problem theory, it would appear so.

alf wayliner
10th October 2007, 14:00
So if I am happy with my contract terms why should I be bullied into strike action because other people are unhappy? Some people will make the best of what they have and others will ALWAYS moan no matter what. Why should I (and more importantly my kids) suffer because of the moaners. If someone has been dismissed unfairly or is being victimised then yes, Im all for solidarity and looking after each other, however some of the arguments between employers and employees are petty and as a rational person I shouldnt suffer.

The simple thing here is that the CWU had a legally constituted ballot that reurned a yes vote for industrial action, a democratic decision (we do live in a democracy don't we?) taken by the membership. They are enacting their rights to with hold their labour hence they aren't being bullied except by RM insisting on change without negotiation!

RedVee Admin
10th October 2007, 14:18
Perhaps when the b1tch dies, but then again. Don't forget people, street party when it happens, DIv and Alf ar bringing the sausage rolls. lol
I'll sort out a mobile disco.

The Greatest
10th October 2007, 15:35
The simple thing here is that the CWU had a legally constituted ballot that reurned a yes vote for industrial action, a democratic decision (we do live in a democracy don't we?) taken by the membership. They are enacting their rights to with hold their labour hence they aren't being bullied except by RM insisting on change without negotiation!

and if an individual still wants to go into work because they are either not in the union or dont agree with what is happening they are in no way intimidated or critisised for not sharing the group philosophy?

alf wayliner
10th October 2007, 15:48
and if an individual still wants to go into work because they are either not in the union or dont agree with what is happening they are in no way intimidated or critisised for not sharing the group philosophy?
Criticism isn't bullying. Intimidation is illegal.

If you want to go into work then go in to work, if you are happy with what you are getting then don't worry be happy. No one can victimise you for it, they might have questions for you but they can't deny you your right to work. BTW I assume you're a postie!

Sadfish
10th October 2007, 16:05
Criticism isn't bullying. Intimidation is illegal.

If you want to go into work then go in to work, if you are happy with what you are getting then don't worry be happy. No one can victimise you for it, they might have questions for you but they can't deny you your right to work. BTW I assume you're a postie!
there is no way you'd realistically be able to go into work, in my experience, of 20 years in an industry the unions have been either bullies or shirkers.

I'm not saying all union reps are the same, but thats my experience.

With regards to my earlier point, the way to make companies work for the indivudual is for individuals to have balls and not be trodden on, if you are then go work somewhere else, I don't buy this "skill set" idea, it's all about working hard for what you want,, I drive 70 mins each way to work, and have worked all over the UK to get to the position I am now, most postie's can do other jobs, hundreds of different jobs, the amount of people I see who can't use a computer one day to being able to build websites 6 months later is a prime example of that.

I'm fully supportive of people fighting for better rights, for more comfortable working hours, for better work/life balances, but as soon as someone mentions "strike" it reminds me of when you are a kid and you throw all your toys away to get some pudding.

Strikes might have been effective in 1970 but in 2007 they just look petty to the vast majority of the general public.

Sadfish
10th October 2007, 16:08
Perhaps when the b1tch dies, but then again. Don't forget people, street party when it happens, DIv and Alf ar bringing the sausage rolls. lol
You need to look to the future not blame people from the past, sher won 3 general elections remember, and whilst I didn't care for her that party dragged this country kicking and screaming into the life style we have today, they ended up having no choice in the end either. I'm not a blue and not a thatcherite but I can see that we would have been dead and buried as a nation if the NUM had had their way.

Saint Bert
10th October 2007, 16:17
and if an individual still wants to go into work because they are either not in the union or dont agree with what is happening they are in no way intimidated or critisised for not sharing the group philosophy?

Sometimes you have just got to do what's best for everyone as a whole, even if you do not want to get involved and not be such a selfish b'stard.

I wonder where we would all be now if all those brave men in 39 would have said stuff Poland and the rest if Europe, we are fine at the moment,nothing to do with me.

I have stood on a picket line and in times like that you soon find out who you can and can't rely on, and that doesn't just mean on that particular occasion.

I hope that you are never in the position were you need to rely on your workmates, because if they know this is your attitude you may be just left high and dry.

Saint Bert
10th October 2007, 16:23
whilst I didn't care for her that party dragged this country kicking and screaming into the life style we have today.

Much of what is wrong with society can be placed at the blame of "Everyman/Woman for themselves" culture, a culture which was nurtured and thrived during the 80's.

The parents of today and now their children know no other way and it is only going to get worse.

DD
10th October 2007, 16:28
You know Alf, i've known you a long time and respect your views, but here's a little ditty for you, I work for a international bank, if me and my colleagues decided to strike and your wages didnt go in for a week or maybe two, or all your bills didnt get paid for a couple of weeks or you couldnt draw any money out of the holes in the walls or buy any food? how would you feel?

Of course, I don't go on strike because i'd get the sack for not coming into work, of course, when people in my industry get made redundant due to outsourcing overseas or the like no one seems to care.

Now I do care about people and the livelihoods but imo striking isnt the answer, i'm firmly of the opinion that if my employer wants to alter my hours or place of work, then they can, when all said and done i'm working for them, if I don't like it then, I have to go and work elsewhere.

This is just something people in my industry have to put up with, our unions are cack and to be honest always have been and therefore its up to us employees to chose "is this the employer I want to work for?".

If I had my way i'd have posties working through the evening delivering because the amount of times i'm at work when they wanna deliver my tickets is a joke.

As I said, I don't like emplyers walking all over their employees, but imagine the mess the country would be in if people in my line of work went on strike. We don't because we know it isn't fair to those people who rely on us. The Royal MAil is already struggling to break into this century, its only a matter of time before it goes under , and the current crisis is depening its situation and there is a real possiblity that the company could go bust and "everyone" will be out of work, the company is trying to streamline its operation and make it profitable so it can survive and grow into the future.

I'm really of the opinion that striking is the last bastion of 70s britain, it serves no purpose except putting out the general public, and how much is it costing the posties in wages? Does it weigh up that they'll lose 2 weeks wages for the sake of coming in 15 mins later each day?

I doubt it does.

I can't be bothered getting involved in this debate because it would take up all day and night, however, despite reading the subsequent posts, I must go on record as saying that this is the one I agree 100% with.

People can shout at me all they wish. This more or less exactly sums up everything I would want to say on the issue.

St. Bert - You'd make a great Scouser! :)

Reacher
10th October 2007, 16:31
Its nice when you can have the choice!!!

The Greatest
10th October 2007, 18:46
Criticism isn't bullying. Intimidation is illegal.
BTW I assume you're a postie!

No, not at all. And dont get me wrong, Im not critisising their actions as I dont know the full (or any) facts about what is going on.

The Greatest
10th October 2007, 18:51
Sometimes you have just got to do what's best for everyone as a whole, even if you do not want to get involved and not be such a selfish b'stard.

I wonder where we would all be now if all those brave men in 39 would have said stuff Poland and the rest if Europe, we are fine at the moment,nothing to do with me.

I have stood on a picket line and in times like that you soon find out who you can and can't rely on, and that doesn't just mean on that particular occasion.

I hope that you are never in the position were you need to rely on your workmates, because if they know this is your attitude you may be just left high and dry.

Rubbish.

Its fine taking the moral high ground if you have less to lose. It might be fine for someone who rents a flat and only has an expendature that involves going to the match the pub or the bookies. What about the poor bloke with 3 kids and a mortgage. Why should he risk his job and also lose money in the process especially if he has no gripes with his conditions and terms of work? If anything he is less selfish because he is putting the needs of his family (other people) first. Conversely,the people without his resposibilities are being selfish by expecting him to fight a battle for thier gripes in which he has more to lose than them.

RedVee Admin
10th October 2007, 19:13
It's Bitch Thatch in disguise...

Shakespeare
10th October 2007, 19:27
Try working in retail. Then you would have something to complain about.

Saint Bert
10th October 2007, 20:28
Try working in retail. Then you would have something to complain about.

Perhaps if the people in retail had done something about there conditions and pay years ago it would not be so bad! :???:

Saint Bert
10th October 2007, 20:31
Rubbish.

Its fine taking the moral high ground if you have less to lose. It might be fine for someone who rents a flat and only has an expendature that involves going to the match the pub or the bookies. What about the poor bloke with 3 kids and a mortgage. Why should he risk his job and also lose money in the process especially if he has no gripes with his conditions and terms of work? If anything he is less selfish because he is putting the needs of his family (other people) first. Conversely,the people without his resposibilities are being selfish by expecting him to fight a battle for thier gripes in which he has more to lose than them.

So your advocating sacrifice but only if you can financially afford to. Bo11ocks man!

Does this mean that if you were in trouble at work you would only expect back up from those without families, your talking sh1t.

It's one in all in or there is no point.

Thanks feck I have never had to rely on the back up of some of the spineless feckers on here!

The Greatest
10th October 2007, 20:37
So your advocating sacrifice but only if you can financially afford to. Bo11ocks man!

Does this mean that if you were in trouble at work you would only expect back up from those without families, your talking sh1t.

It's one in all in or there is no point.

Thanks feck I have never had to rely on the back up of some of the spineless feckers on here!

Im still waiting for you to explain why my wife and kids should potentially lose their home and be forced into hardship for an argument that I dont agree with in the first place. Im a reasonably intelligent, honest and decent individual (modest too lol ). If someone at work is being treated like a shower of $hite then I will stick up for them even if it costs me. If a group of people are splitting hairs and creating a rucas over something that is minor then no I wont be a pleb and just go along with it and risk my families home. Thats not selfish, its common sense....stick up for what you believe in not just what the crowd try to drag you into.

Sadfish
10th October 2007, 21:10
So your advocating sacrifice but only if you can financially afford to. Bo11ocks man!

Does this mean that if you were in trouble at work you would only expect back up from those without families, your talking sh1t.

It's one in all in or there is no point.

Thanks feck I have never had to rely on the back up of some of the spineless feckers on here!
This is the kind of reason that people who support unions don't get my vote, as they often don't represent a reasoned debate and only represent someone who has a chip on their shoulder.

Just because some of us have to stand up for ourselves and get more out of life than those in the unions doesn't mean we are spineless, it just means we know what we want from an employer. And as the greatest has said, sometimes it's just job security and money coming in to support our families.

THat is worth fighting for, fighting against a progressive company will only end in disaster for both parties.

Work together and don't throw toys and go on strike, and maybe things would get sorted sooner and with less damage all round.

Saint Bert
11th October 2007, 09:29
If a group of people are splitting hairs and creating a rucas over something that is minor then no I wont be a pleb and just go along with it and risk my families home.

So a fundamental change in your working practices, including being told you need to work 5 years longer for a reduced pension is a minor change is it. Basically having your entire contract and terms of it altered unilaterally by your employer is a small thing is it.

Get real!

Saint Bert
11th October 2007, 09:38
This is the kind of reason that people who support unions don't get my vote, as they often don't represent a reasoned debate and only represent someone who has a chip on their shoulder.

Just because some of us have to stand up for ourselves and get more out of life than those in the unions doesn't mean we are spineless, it just means we know what we want from an employer. And as the greatest has said, sometimes it's just job security and money coming in to support our families.

THat is worth fighting for, fighting against a progressive company will only end in disaster for both parties.

Work together and don't throw toys and go on strike, and maybe things would get sorted sooner and with less damage all round.

Sorry captain we will never agree on this, and it is funny how it is always people in more senior/affluent positions that just don't get it.

You have done well for yourself Paul, I wonder if having had to have spent a significant amount of time on the bottom rungs of the ladder might have altered your opinion.

Companies pray on the fear of workers losing money and the possibility of financial hardship, it's how they can get you to do things you don't want to, it's the overhanging threat of losing your job, whether it be to closure or out-sourcing ( this has happened to me 3 times in 5 years ) that keeps them squeezing more out of you for less money. Not everyone has skills that allow them to dictate or enter into personal negotiations with their employers, on there own they are a nothing, something that can be replaced tomorrow by anyone. In these cases the only way anyone has a chance, is to stick together collectively for the good of all, even if that does cause short term hardship/difficulties for long term gain/security.

Without being a reverse snob, if haven't been there, and I mean been there for a number of years not just the first couple after school while paying for university or just earning beer money, you just won't get it.

Saint Bert
11th October 2007, 09:44
THat is worth fighting for, fighting against a progressive company will only end in disaster for both parties.
.

Haven't the CUW being doing this for over 8 years, there have been massive changes in the postal service over that time, most of it not for the better, but it has been changes to working practices which as far as I am aware the CUW has co-operated with.

It is only now after all that has been done and alterations to working conditions and pernsions has been instigated, unilaterally I may add, that it has got to the stage of strike action. Strike action that was voted for by the entire workforce and has been coming for several weeks.

Sadfish
11th October 2007, 10:23
You have no idea about what i've "been through " Al, and where I came from etc.

The company I work for Change our terms and conditions all the time, it's just taken as read.

as I keep saying, if you aren't happy go and get a job elsewhere, seriously, its not rocket science.

My missus has been through this recently, but she's stuck at the task and now she's working for a company offering lots more holidays and money than she was on previously when she was on minimum wage.

My post is delivered at 11am, but I often see my postie on the golf course of an afternoon.

Most posties start work when I leave home for work and yet most are finished just after lunch whereas I don't get home until 6.

Thats not the way to run a company. Unless you wanna run it into the ground.

Sadfish
11th October 2007, 10:24
Haven't the CUW being doing this for over 8 years, there have been massive changes in the postal service over that time, most of it not for the better, but it has been changes to working practices which as far as I am aware the CUW has co-operated with.

It is only now after all that has been done and alterations to working conditions and pernsions has been instigated, unilaterally I may add, that it has got to the stage of strike action. Strike action that was voted for by the entire workforce and has been coming for several weeks.
The only change i've seen is that my post is delivered at 11am instead of 7am these days.

At least I would sometimes catch the post before I left for work in the past, nowadays i've got no chance.

alf wayliner
11th October 2007, 10:27
Most posties start work when I leave home for work and yet most are finished just after lunch whereas I don't get home until 6.

Thats not the way to run a company. Unless you wanna run it into the ground.


And what time do you leave home for work?

jill
11th October 2007, 10:27
That Uncle Martin of mine, should be getting my post, not driving his little camper van pretending he is walking the Steve Prescott walk!! :D hehe!! Only Jokin

But it is annoying especially when your waiting for something in it!

Sadfish
11th October 2007, 10:33
And what time do you leave home for work?

I leave for work at 6:30 LATEST.

alf wayliner
11th October 2007, 10:37
I leave for work at 6:30 LATEST.
and what time do you get to work?

Sadfish
11th October 2007, 10:45
and what time do you get to work?

8am.

alf wayliner
11th October 2007, 11:08
The company I work for Change our terms and conditions all the time, it's just taken as read.
as I keep saying, if you aren't happy go and get a job elsewhere, seriously, its not rocket science.

If it is so easy to switch to another job why not have a go at standing up for yourself because if you fail then you can always move onto another job, it's not rocket science and your current employer might appreciate the fact that you know your worth to the company and are prepared to stick with that company rather than feck off as soon as you don't get your own way.


My missus has been through this recently, but she's stuck at the task and now she's working for a company offering lots more holidays and money than she was on previously when she was on minimum wage.
With all due respect you can't turn round and say that Al has no knowledge of your circumstances and then presume that it will be as easy for everyone else as it was for your missus, I've been through two career changes mate and none of them were easy despite having no family commitments at the time!


My post is delivered at 11am, but I often see my postie on the golf course of an afternoon.

Most posties start work when I leave home for work and yet most are finished just after lunch whereas I don't get home until 6.
So what you're saying is that your postie only delivers to your road and the fact that you may be half through or at the end of a long walk hasn't entered your mind.

Also do you know whether your postie is a part time postie of full time?

How do you manage to see your postie on the golf course of an afternoon if you work an hour and a half away leave early in the morning and only get back at 6:00?

A postman doesn't just walk into the delivery office and pick up a bag and walk out with sacks of mail. There are all kinds of things to be done before they set foot out the door. Then they have to get to their walk, for instance if their walk is in Eccleston they have to get a load of mail from Liverpool Road to their walk. then they start the delivery.

Yesterdays walkouts were because posties WANTED to start work at 5:30 RM wouldn't let them start till 6:00 wheres the good management practice there, people want to start early, let them ffs it's not rocket science is it?



Thats not the way to run a company. Unless you wanna run it into the ground.
You're right it isn't but it isn't the posties that run the RM it's Leighton and Crozier. They were the ones who introduced the Single Daily delivery and all its associated bad practices. CWU have little faith in a company that has had pension holidays for years and now wants the employees to pay for the defecit, that's not good management

The Greatest
11th October 2007, 11:10
So a fundamental change in your working practices, including being told you need to work 5 years longer for a reduced pension is a minor change is it. Basically having your entire contract and terms of it altered unilaterally by your employer is a small thing is it.

Get real!

when I wrote


No, not at all. And dont get me wrong, Im not critisising their actions as I dont know the full (or any) facts about what is going on.


Its pretty obvious that I am not casting judgement on the RM workers because I dont know the facts. I am talking about union action as a whole. Your attitude is that if the Union votes on action then they MUST be right and individuals MUST follow. What I am saying is that I am an individual who is capable of making rational decisions rather than following the group opinion. Sometimes I will agree and in those circumstances I have no problem in fighting / arguing a cause. Other times I dont agree and therefore wont be lead along blindly following something that I dont believe in that is detrimental to (ultimately) my kids.


So a fundamental change in your working practices!

The needs of businesses change. Things are done differently now than they were 10 years before which in turn are different that the period before that. Businesses that dont move with the time go bust and this isnt good for either the employer or the employees.


Basically having your entire contract and terms of it altered unilaterally by your employer is a small thing is it.
!

Happens regularly.

In my job I get phoned at home at d1ckhead o clock to provide advice. If I am working on certain projects I may not be able to leave until certain things are done, whether its a Friday or not. I have to do these things but it isnt in my contract.

alf wayliner
11th October 2007, 11:34
Its pretty obvious that I am not casting judgement on the RM workers because I dont know the facts. I am talking about union action as a whole. Your attitude is that if the Union votes on action then they MUST be right and individuals MUST follow. What I am saying is that I am an individual who is capable of making rational decisions rather than following the group opinion. Sometimes I will agree and in those circumstances I have no problem in fighting / arguing a cause. Other times I dont agree and therefore wont be lead along blindly following something that I dont believe in that is detrimental to (ultimately) my kids.
I'm a full time Union rep and believe me unions today are pragmatic organisations who understand the needs of modern businesses, I regularly negotiate on behalf of my members to bring in practices that, if brought in the way the employer wanted, would have caused massive difficulties for both the business and the employers. These practices, by the way, are opposed by our members and vociferously so, however I have to go to these people and explain that the realities of the situation are such that it's move on or lose out. When we have had ballots for action the issues have been major ones that have caused anger amongst members and when the result has come in the employer has been forced back into negotiations.






The needs of businesses change. Things are done differently now than they were 10 years before which in turn are different that the period before that. Businesses that dont move with the time go bust and this isnt good for either the employer or the employees.
Well. I'll certainly not disagree with you there, however the managment of those changes are the issue. Involvement of employees within those changes is fundamental however that is normally the last thing that happens. The number of times I've had to sit in on meetings with managers who have no idea of the impact of what their paper planned projects will have on the real world of the shop floor is unbeleivable. Managers who have theoretical knowledge but have no real practical experience of how a business works expect to wield a sword and make a name for themselves with no regard to consequence.


I
In my job I get phoned at home at d1ckhead o clock to provide advice. If I am working on certain projects I may not be able to leave until certain things are done, whether its a Friday or not. I have to do these things but it isnt in my contract.
By doing it you accept the variation in your contract by implication, simple as that. Although it is not written it is accepted that if you work like that without at least raising an objection in writing before hand, you are deemed to have acepted a variation of your contract.

Sadfish
11th October 2007, 11:36
I dunno really this strike seems to me to be a waste of money for the posties, I don't understand how they can justify losing so many days wages when the company they work for is hardly flushed for cash.

as I say I fully repsect you as friends Alf and Bert but we disagree here over the usefullness of striking, and I fully support that workers right idea and the work you do Alf in supporting people, but just don't accept that in this day and age how walking out is anything less than throwing toys from a cot.

Maybe i've had bad experiences of union reps in past but to be honest most of them had lost the point that it's not their company, and if the company wants to introduce various cack ideas then thats their perogative, if you don't like it then leave.

alf wayliner
11th October 2007, 11:52
I dunno really this strike seems to me to be a waste of money for the posties, I don't understand how they can justify losing so many days wages when the company they work for is hardly flushed for cash.

as I say I fully repsect you as friends Alf and Bert but we disagree here over the usefullness of striking, and I fully support that workers right idea and the work you do Alf in supporting people, but just don't accept that in this day and age how walking out is anything less than throwing toys from a cot.

Maybe i've had bad experiences of union reps in past but to be honest most of them had lost the point that it's not their company, and if the company wants to introduce various cack ideas then thats their perogative, if you don't like it then leave.

OK we'll agree to disagree on this one, it's too near to Saturdaylol

Sadfish
11th October 2007, 11:57
OK we'll agree to disagree on this one, it's too near to Saturdaylol

:) woohoo

Beetle!
11th October 2007, 23:50
Just a quick one on this, i have now heard that all four days strike action are to be docked from THIS weeks pay, even though the strike was over two working weeks which means it should be two days this and two days next.

just thought i'd update you all on what a lousy horrible bunch of •••••••s the royal mail (mis) management team are like

Steward Saint
12th October 2007, 00:13
Well if i'm going to be honest i think the whole thing is pathetic. Common sense dictates that if you dont like your job then move on and let some one who is prepared to work in. We all moan about the unemployed on benefits yet we stay in jobs we hate and constantly moan about.

But thats just my opinion

Beetle!
12th October 2007, 00:32
Well if i'm going to be honest i think the whole thing is pathetic. Common sense dictates that if you dont like your job then move on and let some one who is prepared to work in. We all moan about the unemployed on benefits yet we stay in jobs we hate and constantly moan about.

But thats just my opinion


READ THE WHOLE THREAD!

I love my job, it gets me out and about, keeps me fit (ish) and i am providing service, i do not want to be on strike as much as the next postman/woman, but i also dont want to be continually shafted by RM, we all know modernisation has to take place and agree it should, but the way RM are just steamrollering it through is the thing that grates most people!

another thing is the management, not the line managers as the ex posties are generally ok, its the tits who have never picked up a 35lb pouch in there lives and carried it round in all weathers that are the problem, crozier and his cronies are running the company into the ground, and i beleive its all a ploy to break the company up and get it private!

saintyick
12th October 2007, 08:55
READ THE WHOLE THREAD!

I love my job, it gets me out and about, keeps me fit (ish) and i am providing service, i do not want to be on strike as much as the next postman/woman, but i also dont want to be continually shafted by RM, we all know modernisation has to take place and agree it should, but the way RM are just steamrollering it through is the thing that grates most people!

another thing is the management, not the line managers as the ex posties are generally ok, its the tits who have never picked up a 35lb pouch in there lives and carried it round in all weathers that are the problem, crozier and his cronies are running the company into the ground, and i beleive its all a ploy to break the company up and get it private!

Beetle, any idea when a normal service will resume?

They still nowhere near a settlement with you?

Sadfish
12th October 2007, 09:09
Just a quick one on this, i have now heard that all four days strike action are to be docked from THIS weeks pay, even though the strike was over two working weeks which means it should be two days this and two days next.

just thought i'd update you all on what a lousy horrible bunch of •••••••s the royal mail (mis) management team are like

Well what are you expecting. YOU WORK FOR THEM, geez, get with the scheme.

Sadfish
12th October 2007, 09:28
crozier and his cronies are running the company into the ground, and i beleive its all a ploy to break the company up and get it private!

It would be the best thing to happen to the postal service, maybe then the unions would be working in the real world, in a company that really takse no prisoners and can finally get rid of all the dead wood who cause the people of the country so much grief for so little gain.

Saint Bert
12th October 2007, 09:52
To be honest Beetle, this is what happens when you dance with the Devil.

You can't expect to take industrial action and not receive something back.

Part of the game mate, part of the game

Sadfish
12th October 2007, 10:07
To be honest Beetle, this is what happens when you dance with the Devil.

You can't expect to take industrial action and not receive something back.

Part of the game mate, part of the game
Its good that you acn see that Al, but it's not a game, this is people's livelihoods.

and I'm not just talking about the posties but all those people they have put out by going on strike.

Saint Bert
12th October 2007, 10:20
Its good that you acn see that Al, but it's not a game, this is people's livelihoods.

and I'm not just talking about the posties but all those people they have put out by going on strike.

It IS a game to those at the top!

If that were not the case why are they now messing about with the wages that the posties are owed for services already performed?

Do you think Crozier is bothered?

Perhaps some of those put out by having no post who didn't before will appreciate it a bit more now when normal service is resumed.

Bigman
12th October 2007, 10:35
They want to get posties who can deliver to the right house first, every week i have to do my own deliveries as I end up with someone else's post.

Not saying all posties are the same...

Saint Bert
12th October 2007, 10:39
Its good that you acn see that Al, but it's not a game, this is people's livelihoods.

and I'm not just talking about the posties but all those people they have put out by going on strike.

It IS a game to those at the top!

Do you think Crozier is bothered?

Perhaps some of those put out by having no post who didn't before will appreciate it a bit more no when normal service is resumed.

Sadfish
12th October 2007, 10:50
It IS a game to those at the top!

If that were not the case why are they now messing about with the wages that the posties are owed for services already performed?

Do you think Crozier is bothered?

Perhaps some of those put out by having no post who didn't before will appreciate it a bit more now when normal service is resumed.

No they won't they'll look in future to alternate services for their business whereby there is no chance of the same thing happening again.

alf wayliner
12th October 2007, 11:06
It would be the best thing to happen to the postal service, maybe then the unions would be working in the real world, in a company that really takse no prisoners and can finally get rid of all the dead wood who cause the people of the country so much grief for so little gain.
Really? Be careful what you wish for as you might actually get it!

What would happen with a carve up like this is that it would result in big business getting to cherry pick profitable areas of the postal service without taking up the areas where there is no profit. And when I mean areas of no profit I mean walking down Sadfish St (at any time of the day or night) and poking a letter through your letter box.

One of the big bones of contention that the CWU have consistently been raising when it discusses the future of the postal service is the universal service obligation. This binds RM to maintaining deliveries to every household in the country, other operators are not encumbered by such stringent regulation. If there is to be freedom in the postal service then RM should be allowed to perform as unencumbered as the other licensed operators. Otherwise we will end up in a situation where private companies are allowed to make rich profits from their areas of easy pickings and the rest of the service is subsidised by government or priced out of reach of the punter. We believe until this issue is resolved there can be no meaningful plans for the future of the postal service, it is RM management and the government that aren't living in the real world on this one.

Personally, I find your attitude on this subject patronising to say the least, you have a view of trade unions firmly fixed in your mind and this is exemplified in this post. You assume that we, CWU, have little or no interest in real world issue and are merely seeking to serve our own interests yet we consistently stress the importance of economics and the reality of situations both to our members and management. I am a Tutor for the CWU, I teach (we don't train our reps we educate them) activists to undertake their role. I can personally testify that every rep that goes through our education system is given the broad view of the economic situation that leads to the positions we find ourselves in. Despite what your jaundiced view may be we are not stuck in the '70s we are pragmatic in our approach.

You have little idea of what a postperson actually does, believing that they merely turn up pick up a bag and walk a few yards. You trivialise this dispute down to posties losing a couple of days pay for nothing at all when the impact for the average postie of the proposals on pensions amounts to a loss of £60,000.

Why is the need to receive a pension at 60 so important for posties. Well, believe it or not, being a delivery postperson is one of the most physically demanding of jobs. They are out in all weathers carrying up to 16kg of mail per sack (well that’s the max they are supposed to carry). It is proven that they are many times more likely to suffer from illness and disease such as arthritis, spinal injuries etc. At 60 most posties are, to be blunt, in no fit state to work on a further five years.

And before I get a response from all those people who do equally physically demanding jobs who don't get the pensions and stuff and are questioning why should they get it in the first place, taking away THEIR pension rights doesn't make YOUR conditions any better, what it does do is set an example for employers to revisit what they "give" you. It is far better, I think, to have the postal pension as an aspirational example for your benefit rather than the employers and if that means I'm stuck in the 1970s then get me my bondage pants!

alf wayliner
12th October 2007, 11:17
Well if i'm going to be honest i think the whole thing is pathetic. Common sense dictates that if you dont like your job then move on and let some one who is prepared to work in. We all moan about the unemployed on benefits yet we stay in jobs we hate and constantly moan about.

But thats just my opinion
Given that you are an 18yo student who only works part time in a club I'd like to ask what kind of personal experience allows you to say it's pathetic and use the first person plural with it.

Saint Bert
12th October 2007, 11:21
But Alf, the position CWU members fined themselves in does not directly effect them so who gives a sh1t, No1 is OK.

They set their own table at

http://www.egge.net/~savory/••••_yue.jpg

alf wayliner
12th October 2007, 11:29
Interesting article here!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2007/10/12/do1201.xml

alf wayliner
12th October 2007, 11:38
Well what are you expecting. YOU WORK FOR THEM, geez, get with the scheme.
Really, personally I find this one particularly childish (and I believe it may actually be illegal but why should that stop them) the royal mail has a time sheet week that runs from Mon to Sun so all the pay you earn in that week should be paid the subsequent pay day. What RM are doing is deducting days not worked from two seperate weeks and putting them into one weeks payslip hence they get stopped 4 days in one week when it should be 2 days one week and two days the next week.

Sadfish
12th October 2007, 12:03
Really, personally I find this one particularly childish (and I believe it may actually be illegal but why should that stop them) the royal mail has a time sheet week that runs from Mon to Sun so all the pay you earn in that week should be paid the subsequent pay day. What RM are doing is deducting days not worked from two seperate weeks and putting them into one weeks payslip hence they get stopped 4 days in one week when it should be 2 days one week and two days the next week.
But alf, the posties still work for the Royal Mail, you should expect nothing from them but your salary. I expect nothing from my company but my salary.

Will regards to saying i'm "patronising" you and "little idea of what a post person does".

I have been to many of the Royal Mail depots, including Copress hill on MANY MANY occassions, i've seen with my own eyes massive operations of mailsorting and walksorting and seen the end to end processes involved down to talking to posties about how better to help them filter large bulk mailing.

I have personally created and dispatcvhed MILLIONS of postnet statements and letters via the royal mail.

I have attended many presentations on the business of the royal mail and been involved in machinery and output solutions right down the type of fonts used to help the royal mail sorting machines work more efficeintly.

With regards to your pension rights well posties have better pensions that many people in the UK, especially in the service industry and self employed people who get no such perk.

The royal mail is seen by people in the UK as a joke, both in its operation and in the arcaic roles of the unions and right down to the joke delivery times. The operation currently is on its knees and this strike is costing both the company and the employees money they can ill afford to lose, not only that it is impacting on business and individuals up and down the country and even overseas.

I have no personal gripe with you Alf, and I have no idea how good a union rep you are but what I do see if a mess and a mess that is making things worse for everyone not better.

I find it amazing how most of the companies where people earn the most money and have the best perks are the ones where the Unions have no or little influence, there is a lesson to be learnt there I think.

alf wayliner
12th October 2007, 13:11
But alf, the posties still work for the Royal Mail, you should expect nothing from them but your salary.

But a pension is deferred salary and a significant chunk of it is paid in by the posties themselves. It isn't a perk! Here we have people who are making long term plans to ensure they don't become a burden on the state when they retire and that forward planning and initiative is being undermined by the arbitrary changing of a CONTRACT they have with their employers.


Will regards to saying i'm "patronising" you and "little idea of what a post person does".
Clearly you have little idea of what a postie does despite your involvement at the processing side. The fact that you said you regularly saw your postie on the golf course when you couldn't because you were at work and that you complain about only getting your post at 11:00 (with no regard to the circumstances around that fact) shows that, to my eyes it looked like you were misleading people. The fact that managment brought in those later deliveries and took away the second delivery appear to have conveniently escaped you


I have been to many of the Royal Mail depots, including Copress hill on MANY
MANY occassions,
I take it you mean Copperas Hill?


i've seen with my own eyes massive operations of mailsorting and walksorting and seen the end to end processes involved down to talking to posties about how better to help them filter large bulk mailing.
So thats where the likes of TNT and Deutsche Post will cherry pick. How do you automate the delivery for the actual walk, you still need a postie delivering. CWU recognise that modernisation is coming we're not sticking our heads in the sand, far from it, we're asking for a proper structured plan that serves to maintain a valuable public service that doesn't suffer because private enterprise gets to skim the money off the top and we don't want to see the employees have to pay for it with their pensions.



I have attended many presentations on the business of the royal mail and been involved in machinery and output solutions right down the type of fonts used to help the royal mail sorting machines work more efficeintly.

As I've said before, lots of theoretical knowledge doesn't mean a practicable solution is the automatic outcome. I've been involved in many many meetings and presentations where some smart ar$e has unveiled a plan to revolutionise a working practice only for it to fail at the first hurdle because it was unworkable for the simplest of reasons. Once again how do you automate the delivery side, how do you get a letter from the DO to the customers doormat?




With regards to your pension rights well posties have better pensions that many people in the UK, especially in the service industry and self employed people who get no such perk.

Just because someone else doesn't get something it makes it OK to take it off someone else. You accuse me of being stuck in the 70s well I think you're stuck in the 80s, the 1780s. And for the record, I don't work for the post office, I work for another large company with a really good pension scheme, I earn almost three times what a postie earns, and we have union representation.


I'll turn your own argument back on you, if those in the service industry and the self employed don't like it then let them find a job they do like! it's not rocket science is it!


The royal mail is seen by people in the UK as a joke, both in its operation and in the arcaic roles of the unions and right down to the joke delivery times. The operation currently is on its knees and this strike is costing both the company and the employees money they can ill afford to lose, not only that it is impacting on business and individuals up and down the country and even overseas.
So the fact that operation is on its knees is down to the unions?

Here are a few questions for you,

What is your view of the role of the Unions and why is it archaic?
Why are the unions responsible for the service being on its knees?
Why have the billions of pounds that RM took in holidays from the pension fund not been used to fund investment in the network?
Why, when profits were being made in the past, were they not invested in the service despite the Unions screaming for it for years!
Who brought in those joke delivery times and removed the second delivery and who opposed it.



I have no personal gripe with you Alf, and I have no idea how good a union rep you are but what I do see if a mess and a mess that is making things worse for everyone not better. .
But you lay the blame for that mess firmly at the feet of the Unions, I've still yet to have it explained to me how competing delivery networks can be set up on a cost effective basis. Bring in all the mailsorting you want to, you still need a delivery system at the end of the day and TNT and the likes will not put a delivery person on every street in the country, hence you will have to have a postal delivery service that is subsidised, not by bulk mailings like your's (coz they've been snapped up by TNT haven't they) but by the government. And if you really want to see a farce of a mail service have it in the position where it is a loss making entity and has to go cap in hand to the government of the day for investment!

As a tax payer I find it unnacceptable that I should end up paying to subsidise private enterprise, particularly the likes of TNT and Deutsche Post who aren't even British companies!


I find it amazing how most of the companies where people earn the most money and have the best perks are the ones where the Unions have no or little influence, there is a lesson to be learnt there I thnik.
Really, back that up please, in the sector I work in the unionised workplaces ALL have better terms and conditions, including pay, pensions, annual leave, and are safer working environments than the workplaces that are non unionised.

BTW if you want to know what a Union rep does and has to put with from employers like RM and other big companies who should know better, have a chat with me the next time we bump into each other and I'll give you some examples of where we've steered management away from making a complete balls up of something that, if they'd asked us for advice in the first place, wouldn't have been a problem!

Sadfish
12th October 2007, 13:33
Too many quotes for me, but I often take afternoon off work and see my postie on the golf course. I don't mind if its his holiday too, but I doubt it, its always the joke that the most people on the courses during the day are posties and taxi drivers.

My whole issue around unions is my experince (over 20 years) of seeing Reps who squander their position, taking liberties with jollies to union do's and generally are lazy gits at work who use the union as a way of stopping management from sacking them.

You sound like you've got your finger on the pulse Alf, and I know you have a good heart for all this based on your posting and the time you take to reply.

I do wish the posties good luck for their jobs, but I just don't understand how walking out will ever help anyone.

The day I think my company are treating me so badly to make me walk out is the day I won't be able to walk back in, so why should it be different in the royal mail.

As to how Royal Mail can be replaced, well everyone is replacable and every company is replacable. Don't pretend otherwise, If I got 1 postal delivery a week and it was a saturday morning well to be honest it wouldn't make much difference to me that current levels of service.

And those who rely on RM currently for business would get a better service probably from TNT or the like anyway.

I'm sorry alf but I don't agree with toy throwing like this, if you want the RM Union to be respected then stopping the strikes would be a good start, certainly to me anyway.

Beetle!
12th October 2007, 14:38
To be honest Beetle, this is what happens when you dance with the Devil.

You can't expect to take industrial action and not receive something back.

Part of the game mate, part of the game


i half expected something sneaky, but after having it explained to me at work this morning i accept that i am poor for this week, i understand that industrial action has consequences, just getting fed up with it all thats my problem.


and sadfish, you are a pretentious prick arent you, i wish i could sit in my comfortably paid job all day too, perhaps i wouldnt worry about terms and conditions so much then either!

Sadfish
12th October 2007, 14:55
i half expected something sneaky, but after having it explained to me at work this morning i accept that i am poor for this week, i understand that industrial action has consequences, just getting fed up with it all thats my problem.


and sadfish, you are a pretentious prick arent you, i wish i could sit in my comfortably paid job all day too, perhaps i wouldnt worry about terms and conditions so much then either!
you see, you and Alf and Bert have all called me names, and this is why you will get a nothing from people like myself, calling me childish and a prick and the like.

I've never relied on anyone else, no unions, no easy rides, I had a poor schooling and came away with almost no results, but i've worked hard to earn a living for myself and my family. People who call names seem to be the one's missing the point, I mean, if you can't have a reasoned debate on a messaegboard without lowering the tone into calling people names you've got no chance of getting a pay rise or sorting out better working conditions with your employer.

This thread has reduced the my ideas of Unions even further, they DO belong in the past and their threatening and bullying behaviour is something that should be outlawed.

I can have my opinion, no one stands up for me and my collegues when we get the chop so why should I care anything about unions, seems to be an easy ride for the one's i've known in the past.

Too bad for you losing your pay, but hey, if you don't go into work then what do you expect, if it where done here , you'd all have got the sack a long time ago. You guysdon't seem to understand how good you've got it.

The Greatest
12th October 2007, 14:56
and sadfish, you are a pretentious prick arent you, i wish i could sit in my comfortably paid job all day too, perhaps i wouldnt worry about terms and conditions so much then either!

inverse snobbery now. Ever though he has worked damn hard to be able to sit in his well paid job? Ever thought he might have been the guy putting in the extra hours when others were moaning? Ever though he may have been the guy coming up with ideas when others only saw problems?

Maybe many people dont want to be career minded and dont want to progress higher up the food chain and thats fine but why should people who have chosen to do it be slagged off?

wellosgal
12th October 2007, 16:03
This has got to be the most boring thread ever!!!
Can't beleive I have sat and read it all!!

Sadfish
12th October 2007, 16:07
This has got to be the most boring thread ever!!!
Can't beleive I have sat and read it all!!

it gives me something to do on my lunch. ;)

wellosgal
12th October 2007, 16:09
it gives me something to do on my lunch. ;)

As long as it's keeping someone entertained! lol

Sadfish
12th October 2007, 16:37
As long as it's keeping someone entertained! lol

Well it's not as much entertainment as interest in the whole thing.

Of course it's of little to no consequence to me whatever happens, but I like to understand why people do things like this.

alf wayliner
12th October 2007, 17:01
you see, you and Alf and Bert have all called me names, and this is why you will get a nothing from people like myself, calling me childish and a prick and the like.

I beg your pardon, when did I call you names? (responses relating to this thread only, please).

The Greatest
12th October 2007, 17:43
I beg your pardon, when did I call you names? (responses relating to this thread only, please).

If I were you I'd go on strike and refuse to use this message board until he retracts that comment :D

Tony Kay
12th October 2007, 18:00
I have read this thread with interest. I'm afraid that there is a serious amount of "I'm alright Jack and everyone should be be like me" throughout the thread, plus a fair amount of ignorance of what modern trade unionism is all about. The default defence to being crtitcised from the left of "you are envious" is also, subtly in evidence. Having worked on building sites, in retail, in factories and in the legal profession, I have a fairly wide span of experience of unions working at collective and individual levels. I'm afraid Sadfish's idea of what unions are and what they do is 20 years out of date. That's perhaps why such umbrage has been taken at some of his comments. The LAST thing unions are about these days is striking. In fact, I'm sure Sadfish would join with me in congratulating them on their huge agenda for learning. Helping educate their members and their families so they can do exactly what he espouses in getting better quality jobs. Perhaps Alf could fill him in and he could then get a better understanding of what is at the top of the unions agenda. Strike action is the last resort in the majority of unions. Even those run by the Trots dont rush to the barricades anymore. Unfrettered, unregulated free markets dont work as its just a race for the buck and it doesnt trickle down. Take the USA where you get 15 days holiday. Strong unions working in partnership with progressive ethical employers are a force for good in society. I see lots more flouting of employment laws and rotten health and safety in non unionised firms than where strong unions have a voice. Its funny how many people attempt to join a unioin when they have a problem or their job is threatened. It is a basic human right to withdraw your labour. That's what broken time payments were about in 1895. Co-operation and collectivism formed our game and is why we are having this debate. A lot of the coal miners who were better players could have sodded off and played down south and got easy jobs on the back of the rich rah rah club owners, but they didnt, they withdrew their labour and formed the Northern Union :eek: .

Sadfish
12th October 2007, 18:33
I beg your pardon, when did I call you names? (responses relating to this thread only, please).

well you called me "childish" for starters! ok I may well be, but hey!!! :)

Sadfish
12th October 2007, 18:39
I have read this thread with interest. I'm afraid that there is a serious amount of "I'm alright Jack and everyone should be be like me" throughout the thread, plus a fair amount of ignorance of what modern trade unionism is all about. The default defence to being crtitcised from the left of "you are envious" is also, subtly in evidence. Having worked on building sites, in retail, in factories and in the legal profession, I have a fairly wide span of experience of unions working at collective and individual levels. I'm afraid Sadfish's idea of what unions are and what they do is 20 years out of date. That's perhaps why such umbrage has been taken at some of his comments. The LAST thing unions are about these days is striking. In fact, I'm sure Sadfish would join with me in congratulating them on their huge agenda for learning. Helping educate their members and their families so they can do exactly what he espouses in getting better quality jobs. Perhaps Alf could fill him in and he could then get a better understanding of what is at the top of the unions agenda. Strike action is the last resort in the majority of unions. Even those run by the Trots dont rush to the barricades anymore. Unfrettered, unregulated free markets dont work as its just a race for the buck and it doesnt trickle down. Take the USA where you get 15 days holiday. Strong unions working in partnership with progressive ethical employers are a force for good in society. I see lots more flouting of employment laws and rotten health and safety in non unionised firms than where strong unions have a voice. Its funny how many people attempt to join a unioin when they have a problem or their job is threatened. It is a basic human right to withdraw your labour. That's what broken time payments were about in 1895. Co-operation and collectivism formed our game and is why we are having this debate. A lot of the coal miners who were better players could have sodded off and played down south and got easy jobs on the back of the rich rah rah club owners, but they didnt, they withdrew their labour and formed the Northern Union :eek: .

Maybe part of the problem here is that I am not alone in my lack understanding of current Trade Unions.

As luck would have it the trade union rep came around this after noon with leaflets asking people to join Unity or whatever its called.

I asked him what I would get out of parting with my cash, after a pause he said, "well we negotiated the recent pay rise you got", my answer was, "I didnt get a pay rise because the union negotiated a ceiling band level that falls below my pay level therefore I got 0% pay rise this year because of the unions!".

He quckly escaped and everyone in the room put their pieces of paper in the bin.

I'm no big wig or owt like that, as Div will vouch i'm just a pleb, but I feel done over more by the unions personally than by the company, it seems they are more work in favour of people without ambition and against those who have ambition in many cases.

Next year I lose my company car due to it being negotiatied out of my hands by the union for what reason I still do not know.

But then, I won't be working for the company by that time, as I will move myself into a different job.

Tony Kay
12th October 2007, 19:00
Your reply underlines your lack of understanding. Its a pity that your rep doesnt have a better understanding of what Unite-Amicus Section has done for you and can do for you. You ask whats in it for you. That's the nub of your misunderstanding. Its about "we" and "us" not "I." How many times have you talked about yourself in your reply?
Many of the benefits you enjoy, as I do, in our well paid white collar jobs exist because people had the guts to stand up for themselves. I'm not having a pop at you, you have a narrow view because you think its all about striking and preventing progression (a basic tenet of a good union rep is to level things up, not down). As I said, ask Alf about the learning agenda and equalities agendas where collective action has been the only way to create laws and educate employers that isloating people because of their race, gender, disabilities etc is wrong. No-one on here would defend racial harrassment in the workplace would they? Guess who started campaigns on these issues? If we all said sod everyone else, none of this would have been done and we live in a better fairer society as a result. Is that about strikng or going off on Union jollies?
All these things and much more make up what trade unionism is about. If you have crap reps, vote them out and do it yourself. I think you could do a good job and trust me you would get a huge amount of sartisfaction helping your colleagues who for whatever reason cant help themselves.

alf wayliner
12th October 2007, 19:09
well you called me "childish" for starters! ok I may well be, but hey!!! :)
I think if you reread that post you'll find that the childish comment was referring to the action of the RM managers lumping the 4 days loss of pay into the same pay not what you posted hence the illegal bit in brackets, but if you're prepared to admit if off your own bat who am I to contradict you lol

Sadfish
12th October 2007, 19:50
Your reply underlines your lack of understanding. Its a pity that your rep doesnt have a better understanding of what Unite-Amicus Section has done for you and can do for you. You ask whats in it for you. That's the nub of your misunderstanding. Its about "we" and "us" not "I." How many times have you talked about yourself in your reply?
Many of the benefits you enjoy, as I do, in our well paid white collar jobs exist because people had the guts to stand up for themselves. I'm not having a pop at you, you have a narrow view because you think its all about striking and preventing progression (a basic tenet of a good union rep is to level things up, not down). As I said, ask Alf about the learning agenda and equalities agendas where collective action has been the only way to create laws and educate employers that isloating people because of their race, gender, disabilities etc is wrong. No-one on here would defend racial harrassment in the workplace would they? Guess who started campaigns on these issues? If we all said sod everyone else, none of this would have been done and we live in a better fairer society as a result. Is that about strikng or going off on Union jollies?
All these things and much more make up what trade unionism is about. If you have crap reps, vote them out and do it yourself. I think you could do a good job and trust me you would get a huge amount of sartisfaction helping your colleagues who for whatever reason cant help themselves.
no way, that vast majority of people in the UK haven't got a clue what unions can do for them, and thats because generally the answer is nothing or we certainly have no idea if they do, what they have done........

I talk about myself, because at the end of the day only I am responsible for my life and for my family, when it comes the crunch the union guy at our place didn't have any real interest in passing out flyers or in answering any of my questions, he's just in it for the freebies he gets i'm sure.

If he was interested in his work he would have answered our questions, and instead of flying everyone at 3pm on a friday afternoon he would have hit people at 10am monday morning when people where more interested in work and less interested in going home for the weekend.

I've been in more than one union in the past and to this day I still have no idea what they do really, as I say they've cost me money.

i'm gonna dip out of this thread because its about the royal mail and their dispute with its emplyees or vice versa.

I was only interested in what was going on and how the unions where thinking of going forward, i've said my peace and despite my not liking unions, i'm happy to stand up for Alf and would never cross a picket line with him in it as he is a good man.

The Greatest
12th October 2007, 20:36
You ask whats in it for you. That's the nub of your misunderstanding. Its about "we" and "us" not "I." How many times have you talked about yourself in your reply?
.

So.

He got a 0% pay rise which in real terms is a pay cut given increased cost of living. Is he supposed to be ••••ing chuffed about union activity if they have effectively reduced his income? Is he supposed to celebrate the fact that somebody somewhere has done well out of it.

He goes to work and works as hard as the next man and yet has got the shaft and now your saying he should smile about and say how great it is?

Tony Kay
13th October 2007, 02:37
no way, that vast majority of people in the UK haven't got a clue what unions can do for them, and thats because generally the answer is nothing or we certainly have no idea if they do, what they have done........

I talk about myself, because at the end of the day only I am responsible for my life and for my family, when it comes the crunch the union guy at our place didn't have any real interest in passing out flyers or in answering any of my questions, he's just in it for the freebies he gets i'm sure.

If he was interested in his work he would have answered our questions, and instead of flying everyone at 3pm on a friday afternoon he would have hit people at 10am monday morning when people where more interested in work and less interested in going home for the weekend.

I've been in more than one union in the past and to this day I still have no idea what they do really, as I say they've cost me money.

i'm gonna dip out of this thread because its about the royal mail and their dispute with its emplyees or vice versa.

I was only interested in what was going on and how the unions where thinking of going forward, i've said my peace and despite my not liking unions, i'm happy to stand up for Alf and would never cross a picket line with him in it as he is a good man.

I hear what you say, but what about if you were being truly oppresssed? what about if you were were being put down, without the luxury of having the facility of being able to move from one good job to another, as you and I both have. Plus, in addition, being discriminated against at every turn?
I would stand up for you, even though you make it quite clear that you would not stand up for me, or those less able to articulate their problems than you or I.
Most people will get the impression that you have been affected by this thread and thats why you have have now opted out. As I said before, its a good job that the Northern Union didnt take your attitude in 1895, otherwise we would all be talking about Jerry Wotsisname and the pressure of his balls.

Dave
13th October 2007, 08:57
I hear what you say, but what about if you were being truly oppresssed? what about if you were were being put down, without the luxury of having the facility of being able to move from one good job to another, as you and I both have. Plus, in addition, being discriminated against at every turn?
I would stand up for you, even though you make it quite clear that you would not stand up for me, or those less able to articulate their problems than you or I.
Most people will get the impression that you have been affected by this thread and thats why you have have now opted out. As I said before, its a good job that the Northern Union didnt take your attitude in 1895, otherwise we would all be talking about Jerry Wotsisname and the pressure of his balls.

It seems to me you are putting words in this fellas mouth.