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DD
19th February 2011, 01:47
Firstly, and more importantly, a result that I would have snapped the hands off anyone who had offered it me even if I almost felt cheated that we didn't get 60.

LMS - Looked the part. Run hard, hurts the opposition and one great line break.

TP - Just getting better for me. Looked lazy in parts of 2009 but is now proving his worth.

Gardner - Well done that lad. taken a lot of criticism but fielded well overall despite one shaky moment.

Eastmond - Scored two. instrumental in two others and part of the many we bombed when 56-10 up. If we lose him it is a catastrophic blow, I don't care what anyone says!

In reality, we could and should have got 70+ plus today. We conceded too many points that is for sure but the majority of those were when we relaxed and the job was done. No inquisition necessary.

Well done Saints. Great two points and thoroughly deserved.

johnnyl
19th February 2011, 05:07
Firstly, and more importantly, a result that I would have snapped the hands off anyone who had offered it me even if I almost felt cheated that we didn't get 60.

LMS - Looked the part. Run hard, hurts the opposition and one great line break.

TP - Just getting better for me. Looked lazy in parts of 2009 but is now proving his worth.

Gardner - Well done that lad. taken a lot of criticism but fielded well overall despite one shaky moment.

Eastmond - Scored two. instrumental in two others and part of the many we bombed when 56-10 up. If we lose him it is a catastrophic blow, I don't care what anyone says!

In reality, we could and should have got 70+ plus today. We conceded too many points that is for sure but the majority of those were when we relaxed and the job was done. No inquisition necessary.

Well done Saints. Great two points and thoroughly deserved.

The usual rational thoughts from you Dave, though I do have one question.

This lazy TP that you refer to. Is it Tony "I was Saints 2nd top meter maker in 2009" Puletua or Tony "I was 4th top meter maker out of all the forwards in SL in 2009" Puletua ?

Reacher
19th February 2011, 07:49
After slating people for using stats, you are now using them to suit your argument. You can still be lazy whilst performing well. He clearly makes metres but takes the ball up less than he should. Perhaps if he was not lazy, he may have been the top metre maker.

Ps am talking about 09 here. Your stats prove nothing. I would envisage that if you looked at his number of carries and tackles for the same period that they would be quite low. Metres made are not the only factor if you are arguing against the accusation that a player is lazy. He could have been even more effective in 09.

Sean Day
19th February 2011, 08:09
I think the 22 points against were disappointing on the face of it but as well as the fact that we took the foot off the gas, you also have to remember the number of relatively inexperienced players we had on the field. Throw Wellens, Graham, Wheeler, Pryce, Perry etc into the mix and we are looking reasonably strong imo

Buddy
19th February 2011, 08:17
After slating people for using stats, you are now using them to suit your argument. You can still be lazy whilst performing well. He clearly makes metres but takes the ball up less than he should. Perhaps if he was not lazy, he may have been the top metre maker.

Ps am talking about 09 here. Your stats prove nothing. I would envisage that if you looked at his number of carries and tackles for the same period that they would be quite low. Metres made are not the only factor if you are arguing against the accusation that a player is lazy. He could have been even more effective in 09.

Stats are useful for things you haven't seen yourself ;)

Wanderer
19th February 2011, 08:52
Positives -
A very good scoreline. Ok, Salford were poor, but given the second halfback pairing in as many weeks, plus Kyle's steady return to match fitness, plus the absence of Leon, Jammer and Wello in particular, plus having a couple of rookies on the pitch, I think it was a good effort all round to put so many on the board. We looked better in both defence and attack. A way to go yet before we hit our straps but the improvement was there. I found it difficult to choose three MoMs because I could have added Wilkin, especially in the first half, who seems to be responding well to where he is playing and Jamie Foster who continues to show real ability. Kyle was better this week than last, which is encouraging. He took on the line more, set up two tries and scored two and was generally trying to be a pest. Gardner's performance improved considerably from last week, which suggests he is beginning to work out his new partnership with Shenton, who impressed me this week. LMS worked hard and that break was great - he can really run!

Negatives -
The last fifteen minutes. I know we were miles ahead but I think we should be making sure we show a killer instinct. We have the fitness levels now, that is clear, but without that willingness to finish off our opponents we could get caught out against the tougher teams, especially Leeds and Wigan. But hopefully Simmons will coach that attitude out of them and make them value the full 80 minutes regardless of the scoreline.

Albion
19th February 2011, 08:59
The moment of the match for me (no matter how insignificant it was) was when we were defending on our own line and Soliola made a hit on Parker which caused him to knock on. Every saints player rushed over and celebrated the good defence like it was a try. Really good to see and shows that Royce is really working on attitude in defence.

Summed the night up as well: a clinical team effort

Wanderer
19th February 2011, 09:07
Every saints player rushed over and celebrated the good defence like it was a try. Really good to see and shows that Royce is really working on attitude in defence.
That is something he has specifically mentioned isn't it? I remember him once saying that they will run 80 metres to celebrate a try but there is no reward when they have put in some really good defence. I didn't see the incident you mentioned - must have been nattering or something - but it is great to know that he is changing the culture in that way.

wabo
19th February 2011, 09:07
Positives -
A very good scoreline. Ok, Salford were poor, but given the second halfback pairing in as many weeks, plus Kyle's steady return to match fitness, plus the absence of Leon, Jammer and Wello in particular, plus having a couple of rookies on the pitch, I think it was a good effort all round to put so many on the board. We looked better in both defence and attack. A way to go yet before we hit our straps but the improvement was there. I found it difficult to choose three MoMs because I could have added Wilkin, especially in the first half, who seems to be responding well to where he is playing and Jamie Foster who continues to show real ability. Kyle was better this week than last, which is encouraging. He took on the line more, set up two tries and scored two and was generally trying to be a pest. Gardner's performance improved considerably from last week, which suggests he is beginning to work out his new partnership with Shenton, who impressed me this week. LMS worked hard and that break was great - he can really run!

Negatives -
The last fifteen minutes. I know we were miles ahead but I think we should be making sure we show a killer instinct. We have the fitness levels now, that is clear, but without that willingness to finish off our opponents we could get caught out against the tougher teams, especially Leeds and Wigan. But hopefully Simmons will coach that attitude out of them and make them value the full 80 minutes regardless of the scoreline.

errrrrr Salford were finished off after 30-40 minutes. No need to lengthen the injury list ahead of the Wire clash.

Like DD said I too would have been happy with any sort of win given we havent won there since 2007. Add to that we were missing both captains and Leon I think the result was fantastic even as bad as Salfoed were.

Another positive...we have James Roby, the lad just seems to get better and better with every game

Wanderer
19th February 2011, 09:10
errrrrr Salford were finished off after 30-40 minutes. No need to lengthen the injury list ahead of the Wire clash.
Well, I'm not going to argue with you. I just hope we remember to be active in defence for the full 80 next week.


Another positive...we have James Roby, the lad just seems to get better and better with every game
He is in his own class, is James Roby. He seems to have come into his own since taking on the 9 shirt. We are very fortunate to have a player of his quality and commitment in our team.

Albion
19th February 2011, 09:13
That is something he has specifically mentioned isn't it? I remember him once saying that they will run 80 metres to celebrate a try but there is no reward when they have put in some really good defence. I didn't see the incident you mentioned - must have been nattering or something - but it is great to know that he is changing the culture in that way.

It was in the first half as it was Salford who were attacking where we were stood. Yep he did mention that attitude in defence needs to be better didn't he.

wabo
19th February 2011, 09:17
Well, I'm not going to argue with you. I just hope we remember to be active in defence for the full 80 next week.


He is in his own class, is James Roby. He seems to have come into his own since taking on the 9 shirt. We are very fortunate to have a player of his quality and commitment in our team.

I'm sure we'll crank up the inensity levels in attack and defence for the full 80 next week

superdom
19th February 2011, 09:45
3 try scoring opportunities thrown away:
Meli dropping the ball with a 2 on 1 overlap in the first half!!!
Lomax being too cute and trying to give Eastmond his hattrick in the second. Pass was interecepted!!!!
Eastmond deciding not to use his pace and walk to the line with it at his mercy in the second half. Got tackled while tryting to offload!!!!

The latter 2 were showboating.... but in such an easy game I could understand.

Salford really are awful.
I was expecting big ish things from them this year.
Their fan base is pretty weak.
Their coach is under pressure.
Poor them.

Albion
19th February 2011, 10:20
Their coach is under pressure.

That's an understatement! He had to be ushered off by a sea of men in orange at HT and FT

ploughman
19th February 2011, 10:42
A very poor Salford side,but take nothing away from saints.Last season Matty Smith killed us,Foster and Lomax had a nigtmare and we were clueless.What a difference 12 months make.I have a lot of confidence for this season,a lot more than i did this time last year.LMS and Shenton looking good,Wilkin like a new player at 13 and the team playing with a smile again.
Get the injured players back and this is a very good team.My only problem is the Eastmond situation.If he leaves we can not go through the season without a scrumhalf,if he goes at the end of the season his mind wont be where it should be,and i cant see any good replacements available.A worry indeed

Quiet Man
19th February 2011, 10:53
I th[nk it is very easy to get carried away with last nights performance, but it was a win. Two small incidents which caught my attention were firstly late in the 1st half Soliola was comimg back onthe field as a substitution. He sprinted flat out to get to the other side of the pitch and get involved in the action which I thought showed great attitude, The second incident was in the 2nd half we had just given a stupid try away from the kick off , and when we kicked off the chase was like an Olympic 100m final (slight exag.) particularly Wikins and Lee gaskell. The result was that General Patten cocked up and the ball flew into Gaskells hands and he went in for a well deserved try.
These two incidents albeit small epitomised the excellent attitude of the players.

Blobbynator
19th February 2011, 11:30
The usual rational thoughts from you Dave, though I do have one question.

This lazy TP that you refer to. Is it Tony "I was Saints 2nd top meter maker in 2009" Puletua or Tony "I was 4th top meter maker out of all the forwards in SL in 2009" Puletua ?

It's one thing me and Dave differ on. I think TP is fantastic and has been a superb signing for us. Him and Graham have carried our pack for 2 years and it's good to finally see LMS and Perry on board to give them the pack that edge.

As for our performance, we looked alot sharper than we did in Cardiff and the amount of points scored will be a nice confidence booster for us. Hopefully Graham, Wellens and Pryce will return next week as we will take some stopping at the moment with those 3 added in.

Div
19th February 2011, 11:36
Some encouraging signs and with Perry and Graham added we appear to have a monster pack.

Another big plus from last night was the performance of some of the young lads. I though Lomax and Foster combined well taking the ball away from our line and I thought Lee Gaskell showed some nice touches and some pace.

Ade seems to have upped his game too, maybe he fully realises he needs to play to keep his shirt and good on him for working hard.

Div
19th February 2011, 11:39
Positives -
..

Negatives -
The last fifteen minutes. I know we were miles ahead but I think we should be making sure we show a killer instinct. We have the fitness levels now, that is clear, but without that willingness to finish off our opponents we could get caught out against the tougher teams, especially Leeds and Wigan. But hopefully Simmons will coach that attitude out of them and make them value the full 80 minutes regardless of the scoreline.



I think we all sat back with half an hour to go waiting for the 70 or 80 points to be chalked up but lets face it with 50 on the board and half and hour remaining the game was well and tryly ' killed' . I think with the absentees we should be satisfied with what we have especially on a ground that we have traditionally struggled to put the opposition away on.

Wanderer
19th February 2011, 12:01
I think we all sat back with half an hour to go waiting for the 70 or 80 points to be chalked up but lets face it with 50 on the board and half and hour remaining the game was well and tryly ' killed' . I think with the absentees we should be satisfied with what we have especially on a ground that we have traditionally struggled to put the opposition away on.
I was perfectly satisfied, except for those final 15 minutes, which spoiled what was otherwise some great performances and some improvement on last week, which shows we are gelling as a team. On the Sky website, Simmons is quoted:


They moved past the half-century mark soon after the break before taking their foot off the gas, allowing Salford to score twice in the closing stages, much to the disappointment of their coach, Royce Simmons.

"We got into a comfortable lead and went away from what we were doing well," he said.

"I was particularly happy with the 20 minutes before half-time when we started to play some of the football I wanted us to play.

"I was a little disappointed with us letting in 22 points. We set ourselves a few targets at the start of the year and we conceded a few too many points."
No different to what me and a few other people are saying really. Plenty of time to put it right.

johnnyl
19th February 2011, 12:35
After slating people for using stats, you are now using them to suit your argument. You can still be lazy whilst performing well. He clearly makes metres but takes the ball up less than he should. Perhaps if he was not lazy, he may have been the top metre maker.

Ps am talking about 09 here. Your stats prove nothing. I would envisage that if you looked at his number of carries and tackles for the same period that they would be quite low. Metres made are not the only factor if you are arguing against the accusation that a player is lazy. He could have been even more effective in 09.

Well firstly, I dont recall slating someone for using stats. I have perhaps slated someone for using them badly, by all means show me where.

That aside, I would find it extremely hard to believe that a forward can make it into the top 4 meter makers in the entire league (for forwards) and be lazy. If he was a back then yes because you get meters for fielding kicks and making breaks.

Tony P in 2009 was brought in as a back row forward and had to fill in as a prop, he did excellent all things being considered.


Your stats prove nothing. I would envisage that if you looked at his number of carries and tackles for the same period that they would be quite low. Metres made are not the only factor if you are arguing against the accusation that a player is lazy. He could have been even more effective in 09.

Those numbers however are proportional to the amount of time he was allowed to spend on the pitch. It is not unreasonable to suggest that even with gametime coming in spells he still managed to make huge meters. Thats far from being poor - not every prop has to be a 70minute+ James Graham.

Edit - Just had a quick look for 2009 and his total tackles was 545 compared to James Grahams 590. Theres another myth busted then

johnnyl
19th February 2011, 12:36
It's one thing me and Dave differ on. I think TP is fantastic and has been a superb signing for us. Him and Graham have carried our pack for 2 years and it's good to finally see LMS and Perry on board to give them the pack that edge.

.

We both know he's talking c**k lol

noonesaint
19th February 2011, 13:37
anybody know why moore and scars were put on report for

Reacher
19th February 2011, 13:51
No one is saying he is not effective, what myself and Dave are doubting are his ability to do so much more. At times he was lazy and looked disinterested. His skills have never been questioned.

kirk1989
19th February 2011, 13:56
LMS was awesome yesterday. really looking forward to what he will become. defo a big shout for an england call up

Gaskell impressed me again. keep it going lad. less worried now for when pryce is injured.

johnnyl
19th February 2011, 14:04
No one is saying he is not effective, what myself and Dave are doubting are his ability to do so much more. At times he was lazy and looked disinterested. His skills have never been questioned.

yes, but the problem is that meters made and (as you have already stated) tackles made are a good measure of effort put in. Thats not about skills, thats about working for the team. They are the two primary jobs of a prop and he's done them both.

Gray77
19th February 2011, 16:01
Negatives -
The last fifteen minutes. I know we were miles ahead but I think we should be making sure we show a killer instinct. We have the fitness levels now, that is clear, but without that willingness to finish off our opponents we could get caught out against the tougher teams, especially Leeds and Wigan. But hopefully Simmons will coach that attitude out of them and make them value the full 80 minutes regardless of the scoreline.

I appreciate the point, but we really have to look at the fact that games like this are about winning, pure and simple. You mention killing off teams, well Salford were killed off before half-time, we didn't need to go for the whole 80 as the game was won. These teams battle it out for 27 weeks in a diluted regular season, they cannot be expected to shut up shop for 80 minutes in a game they are leading by 40-50 points. If the game were closer then things would have been different, the discipline would have been better, but you cannot compare one game from the next as the game situation dictates the attitude of the team really.

Come September this game will mean nothing other than we got 2 points from it. You win absolutely nothing from these 27 games other than a play-off place, and if it means we reduce the risk of injury, keep the players fresh etc then I have no issue with shipping in a few tries in a game long-won. Just because we do it in an easy win doesn't mean we will do it in a bigger closer game.

We conceded 16 to Wigan and 22 to Salford, it means nothing as we all know we defended better and to the last minute against the elite team in the close game. Had we been beating Wigan by 40-50 I imagine we'd have conceded a couple more against them also. But it was a close game, we kept going for 80 and defended well. Last night it wasn't needed, and we loosened up, it's only natural now in the play-off era when games in February are long forgotten.

I wouldn't be too concerned with the 22 points conceded and doubt it will have any effect on the Wire game next week.

NUTSONTHE70S
19th February 2011, 16:12
I appreciate the point, but we really have to look at the fact that games like this are about winning, pure and simple. You mention killing off teams, well Salford were killed off before half-time, we didn't need to go for the whole 80 as the game was won. These teams battle it out for 27 weeks in a diluted regular season, they cannot be expected to shut up shop for 80 minutes in a game they are leading by 40-50 points. If the game were closer then things would have been different, the discipline would have been better, but you cannot compare one game from the next as the game situation dictates the attitude of the team really.


Come September this game will mean nothing other than we got 2 points from it. You win absolutely nothing from these 27 games other than a play-off place, and if it means we reduce the risk of injury, keep the players fresh etc then I have no issue with shipping in a few tries in a game long-won. Just because we do it in an easy win doesn't mean we will do it in a bigger closer game.

We conceded 16 to Wigan and 22 to Salford, it means nothing as we all know we defended better and to the last minute against the elite team in the close game. Had we been beating Wigan by 40-50 I imagine we'd have conceded a couple more against them also. But it was a close game, we kept going for 80 and defended well. Last night it wasn't needed, and we loosened up, it's only natural now in the play-off era when games in February are long forgotten.

I wouldn't be too concerned with the 22 points conceded and doubt it will have any effect on the Wire game next week.
And lets not forget we normally have a dodgy start to the season. That, and the fact weve got players to return soon, gives me a lot of hope. These kids we have, they seem to have come on leaps and bounds, and its surely gonna give us strength in depth. Be nice to have quality players fighting for a place in the side.

Wanderer
19th February 2011, 16:19
I wouldn't be too concerned with the 22 points conceded and doubt it will have any effect on the Wire game next week.
The coach was concerned because of targets the team had set for the season. It's important not to have that attitude. We saw how it just continued on through the season last season. According to family who listened to the match on Radio Merseyside, Paul Wellens thought the club would be disappointed with those last fifteen minutes. It's right that they set high standards from the outset. However, I thoroughly enjoyed the match, not least for the scoreline and for seeing just how many of our players put in good performances and were making progress with the new team set up, plays and coach. That still doesn't stop me and others thinking that it was a shame about those last fifteen minutes.

Gray77
19th February 2011, 16:40
The coach was concerned because of targets the team had set for the season. It's important not to have that attitude. We saw how it just continued on through the season last season. According to family who listened to the match on Radio Merseyside, Paul Wellens thought the club would be disappointed with those last fifteen minutes. It's right that they set high standards from the outset. However, I thoroughly enjoyed the match, not least for the scoreline and for seeing just how many of our players put in good performances and were making progress with the new team set up, plays and coach. That still doesn't stop me and others thinking that it was a shame about those last fifteen minutes.

Of course Wello would say that. He, Simmons or anybody else are hardly likely to say they're happy conceding points. But the fact is that it's part of the game now, and when we play a 27 game season in which 8 teams make the play-offs it's going to be natural in February to slack off with 15minutes to go in a game easily won.

You and I have a different attitude towards these type of games, I appreciate that. You think the regular season is more important than I do, fair enough. I wish every week was must-win, I wish we played games every week that had real importance come the end of the season, but I know that last night and countless other games this season will be forgotten come play-off time. The games with Wigan, Warrington, Leeds and Huddersfield will dictate our position and attitude come the play-offs and in those games we will play for 80 minutes and defend for the whole game (like last week). In games like last nights the priorities (no matter what is said) will be different.

You think the team should be going full pelt for 80 minutes every week, that's fine, you pay your money and have your view and I'm hardly going to knock you for wanting our team to be as good as possible. I just think that it is unrealistic to expect it when regular season games mean less than they should.

Albion
19th February 2011, 17:24
yes, but the problem is that meters made and (as you have already stated) tackles made are a good measure of effort put in. Thats not about skills, thats about working for the team. They are the two primary jobs of a prop and he's done them both.

100% right.

I can't see how people call TP 'lazy', I don't need stats to tell me that but they back up the point made.

Exiled Saint
19th February 2011, 17:28
We won,that's what matters,this has been a banana skin of a game for us for far too long,and we came away with the points,that's an improvement!,and we got through with no more injuries so however you cut it,it's a result and a good one at that:smile:

robert80
19th February 2011, 18:01
100% right.

I can't see how people call TP 'lazy', I don't need stats to tell me that but they back up the point made.

TP has been a fabulous signing. What a try scorer and what a pair of hands. He is entitled to let the younger blokes take the hard knocks. Don't forget his age and that most of his rugby has been in the NRL

Lex
19th February 2011, 18:01
On a lighter note. With about 15 minutes to go last night, and just after Parker had got a little wound up, and put a cheap shot in on Louie, if the guy who came out with the classic one liner writes on these pages, then take a bow: "Your nothing more than a chauffeur" was brilliant, followed by he and a few of his mates began singing the Thunderbirds theme tune. Loved it.

Reacher
19th February 2011, 18:06
The fact is that after his hat trick against Cas a couple of years ago, TP went missing for quite a while. No one is denying the fact that he has been a great signing. The fact remains that a couple of years ago, he could have done so much more

johnnyl
19th February 2011, 18:12
The fact is that after his hat trick against Cas a couple of years ago, TP went missing for quite a while. No one is denying the fact that he has been a great signing. The fact remains that a couple of years ago, he could have done so much more

So how did he end up putting in the meters that he did and tackling of the same magnitude as James Graham. Seriously, if it was Wanderer on here claiming that he was lazy because he "looks lazy and disinterested" we'd be laughing at her.

Lex
19th February 2011, 18:18
So how did he end up putting in the meters that he did and tackling of the same magnitude as James Graham. Seriously, if it was Wanderer on here claiming that he was lazy because he "looks lazy and disinterested" we'd be laughing at her.

Perhaps its along the lines of people who think Kyle did'nt look interested last night, or bothered when Saints scored or not. With the little bit of highlights shown on Sky tonight, he certainly celebrated his and his team mates tries, and throughout the night was disappointed when he was'nt given the ball on last tackles, or when an obvious set move was on.
People will or wont see what they want, rightly or wrongly, its all about opinions matey.

Wanderer
19th February 2011, 20:29
You think the team should be going full pelt for 80 minutes every week, that's fine, you pay your money and have your view and I'm hardly going to knock you for wanting our team to be as good as possible. I just think that it is unrealistic to expect it when regular season games mean less than they should.
Castleford did exactly the same thing tonight that Saints did last night, except with Castleford (a) their defence was better than Saints' defence throughout the match, and (b) Wello would never have been fooled like Mathers was: he would have read that Hudds were setting up to attempt that kick to the winger move again and would have gone deep and tracked so he could run the winger into touch. The Cas fans would all have been disappointed with that last try from Hudds just as all the Saints fans around me were disappointed with the last two tries (ridiculous!) from Salford last night. If we want to win a Grand Final again, rather than be runners up (assuming we get there, obviously), I firmly believe we have to adopt good habits. One good habit, the habit we had when we were winning silverware, was never to give up on defence. That's not to say they were perfect - we still lost games and gave away points - but right from the outset there has to be a killer mentality in a team or else that team will not win the ultimate prizes. The Wigan team was a very good example of that last season as we have been in the past. No, we don't win anything in round 2, but this is the time, in my view, when good habits are set down in readiness for the business end of the season.

And on top of that, I want to be able to jump up and down again like I did at Cardiff instead of the ending being a bit of a damp squib, spoiled by needless lost points. The Cas fans were quiet at the end tonight quite possibly because letting a try in on the death spoiled the euphoria for them, just as it killed it off for us Saints fans on Friday night. Mind you, for Cas what happened tonight was a big achievement. I didn't know that they hadn't won their first game of the season at home for eight years!

Lex
19th February 2011, 21:22
In reply to Wanderer's point. The Cas defence may or may not have been better than Saints' last night, but the simple fact is, it had to be. The game tonight was far tighter all round. We were'nt exactly tested last night, and yes it would have been nice to get more points on the board, and keep the Salford score down, but I'll take that result, we must remember, they scored from a mistake in the first attack of the 2nd half, and then scored another after the hooter, in between that we looked very steady.
Considering a lot of us on here were very concerned prior to the game, due to the injuries and our recent performances at Salford, we should really just take heart.

Syd
19th February 2011, 21:31
Lovely game, came out, hit em hard, racked up the points, bombed many more, and all with a squad missing 5 or so players, a debutant wo played about 1 second, and yougn Gaskell playing his 2nd or 3rd game in teh big league..... Salford may be gash, but we didnt care and got stuck in. Shame we didnt hit the 60 or 70, as it was within us, but boy it was nice to see us rack up that score, and so early in the season when pitches are heavy and wet, and temperatures are baltic and make yuor willy shrivel.

Now then, the wire, ha ha ha ha

WOOF WOOF !

Lex
19th February 2011, 21:39
Lovely game, came out, hit em hard, racked up the points, bombed many more, and all with a squad missing 5 or so players, a debutant wo played about 1 second, and yougn Gaskell playing his 2nd or 3rd game in teh big league..... Salford may be gash, but we didnt care and got stuck in. Shame we didnt hit the 60 or 70, as it was within us, but boy it was nice to see us rack up that score, and so early in the season when pitches are heavy and wet, and temperatures are baltic and make yuor willy shrivel.

Now then, the wire, ha ha ha ha

WOOF WOOF !

So its the weather thats to blame then ? Thank god for that, I thought my hands had grown !!!!

Wanderer
19th February 2011, 21:47
In reply to Wanderer's point. The Cas defence may or may not have been better than Saints' last night, but the simple fact is, it had to be. The game tonight was far tighter all round. We were'nt exactly tested last night, and yes it would have been nice to get more points on the board, and keep the Salford score down, but I'll take that result, we must remember, they scored from a mistake in the first attack of the 2nd half, and then scored another after the hooter, in between that we looked very steady.
Considering a lot of us on here were very concerned prior to the game, due to the injuries and our recent performances at Salford, we should really just take heart.
Ok. One last try and then I'll give up! I know I'm holding a minority view here and I know where that tends to lead. Simmons set targets for the team defensively. He has openly said he wants to address our defence because we regularly leaked more than 20 points a match last season. Salford would have been the ideal match to achieve that target, exactly because they did not put the pressure on us that other teams will do. Simmons clearly wants the culture at Saints to change - he has said exactly that in his press releases - and I agree with him. If we think it's ok to let a try in here and there due to slacking off (or taking our foot off the gas) then we will be caught out, just as we were last season. Get into good habits and structures and things will be easier for us, we won't have to do all that exhausting scrambling defence which can be easily undermined by a good grubber or chip kick anyway.

I honestly don't need to take heart because I saw enough in the first half to realise that our problem is not in the ability to defend but our attitude towards defence. Now is the time to address that attitude, not when we are in the business end of the season, so that we create a good mental approach as well as a good physical approach. I hope that against Warrington the lads - all of them, and not just the hard workers in defence like Robes and Moore for instance - take it on board and adopt the change of culture that we need to be winners of silverware rather than runners up.

Lex
19th February 2011, 22:11
In my defence Wanderer, I was'nt saying you were wrong and I was right, I was, in my way trying to get over the point that we were all disappointed for the same, and differering reasons, but we were also pleased for a great deal of points. We are by no means the finished article, but for what I've seen so far, all bodes well. So please, dont give up !

BoldMiners
19th February 2011, 22:14
Oh dear. You are eulogising having beaten the current worst team in SL. The point about not risking injuries is weak. The fact remains you switched off after 50 minutes and allowed Salford to draw the second half. Do that next week and you will be slaughtered!

Wanderer
19th February 2011, 22:14
In my defence Wanderer, I was'nt saying you were wrong and I was right, I was, in my way trying to get over the point that we were all disappointed for the same, and differering reasons, but we were also pleased for a great deal of points.
No worries.


We are by no means the finished article, but for what I've seen so far, all bodes well.
Oh, I agree with you 100%!

Wanderer
19th February 2011, 22:15
Do that next week and you will be slaughtered!
Exactly. And it's hard to just switch back and forth between attitudes. Much better to stick with one attitude all the time: preferably a killer one!

Albion
19th February 2011, 22:22
Oh dear. You are eulogising having beaten the current worst team in SL. The point about not risking injuries is weak. The fact remains you switched off after 50 minutes and allowed Salford to draw the second half. Do that next week and you will be slaughtered!

That's the key term in your post. They are the worst team in SL so to keep our intensity up is not going to happen but come next week we will hold the intensity for the full 80. They aren't super-humans who are not affected mentally by anything, you will see it throughout the season, teams switch off if they build a winning lead against considerably 'weaker' opponent

Saints-Crusaders
19th February 2011, 22:27
The fact remains you switched off after 50 minutes and allowed Salford to draw the second half.


Not to be too picky, but we still won the second half 18-16 ;-)

ploughman
19th February 2011, 22:46
Not to be too picky, but we still won the second half 18-16 ;-)

they have to add up by counting on their fingers,when you have 11 fingers you sometimes get it wrong

Gruntfuttock
20th February 2011, 10:13
didnt Wigan have the same problem at 16-0 up in Cardiff ? ,if you believe their supporters on RL Fans thats what let us back into the game , an inability of the Wigan team to finish off opponents

Div
20th February 2011, 10:34
This is amusing. Pre season everyone was talking up salfords chances with a good number of new signings. They were tipped as dark horses for a play off berth by some. All of a sudden after 2 games they are now ' the worst team in sl'.

Blobbynator
20th February 2011, 11:32
I can understand where a Wanderer is coming from on this.

Whilst the game was won and we conceded two late tries, 22 points conceded was a big disappointment for me. There weren't many occasions last year when Wigan dropped off like that and at the end of the season points difference could matter, as it did last year. It possibly cost Warrington a chance of making the Grand Final. It's OK saying the league table doesn't matter, but there are probably 5 teams that can genuinely win SL this year - Wigan, Saints, Warrington, Huddersfield and Leeds - so our final league position could be crucial if we want to make the Grand Final. It's an attitude thing and at times, particularly in the middle of the park our defence was quite ruthless on Friday, which was impressive. I still worry about our fringe defence though as we seem to defend very tight in the middle and don't have the pace on the outside to cover when teams spread the ball. It happened alot last year and there have been signs so far this year, whenever teams have got the ball wide against us. We need to improve in that area and show consistency otherwise teams will burn us on the outside just like we were in last year's Grand Final.

Still, it's early days yet and we haven't had a full strength team so our defensive pattern may be a bit rusty at the moment. But there are definitely plenty of areas we can improve.

The Chair Maker
20th February 2011, 12:44
Catalans are by far the worst team in the league from what i have seen.

Wanderer
20th February 2011, 16:45
didnt Wigan have the same problem at 16-0 up in Cardiff ? ,if you believe their supporters on RL Fans thats what let us back into the game , an inability of the Wigan team to finish off opponents
Well, they have made up for it now!

10-44 (at least) - now that is how you kill off your opposition!

Agent Mulder
20th February 2011, 17:12
Well, they have made up for it now!

10-44 (at least) - now that is how you kill off your opposition!

They have let in 12 less than us but we have scored 12 more than them. Even stephens in my book.

Wanderer
20th February 2011, 18:29
They have let in 12 less than us but we have scored 12 more than them. Even stephens in my book.
Who won the Grand Final though? ;) I don't think it works like that. Had we not let in those 12 points, and really we had no need to: we had Salford sown up, then we would now be 12 points ahead of Wigan. That might not mean much to many at this time of the season but it could also mean that we aren't left fighting on the last match - like last season - to clinch a Grand Final spot. I mean, how many teams have made it to the Grand Final from outside the top two, since Superleague has been around?

Gray77
21st February 2011, 08:59
Who won the Grand Final though? ;) I don't think it works like that. Had we not let in those 12 points, and really we had no need to: we had Salford sown up, then we would now be 12 points ahead of Wigan. That might not mean much to many at this time of the season but it could also mean that we aren't left fighting on the last match - like last season - to clinch a Grand Final spot. I mean, how many teams have made it to the Grand Final from outside the top two, since Superleague has been around?

I think you need to relax slightly. This match will not effect our chances of making the top 2. We will need to pick up points against the big teams to finish top 2 and not lose too many stupid games. We lost at home to Hull and Catalans last year, conceded 40 in losing to Salford away, conceded 30 at home to Crusaders etc, etc yet we finished 2nd (when we really shouldn't have) basically because we beat Wire home and away. Lose one of those two games with Wire and that Cas game on the final weekend would have been an irrelevance.

We won by 34 points, it's a good win, some were worrying we may even lose there on Friday night. We just need to win those types or games and approach the bigger games like we generally have in the last few years. Our defence will improve when it needs to, like it did in the second half at Cardiff and in numerous games against the big teams. We won 6 of the 8 games we played against the top 5 last year, that is what makes the difference, not shipping a couple late on against Salford.

I appreciate what you're saying, you want the defence to be tight for 80 minutes, I am merely agreeing to disagree with you on this, but our attitude in smaller games has never had an effect on our attitude in the bigger ones going way back to the Millward years, and new coach or not it seems old habits at our club will remain.

Wanderer
21st February 2011, 09:47
I think you need to relax slightly.
I think you need to avoid patronising me. There was a smiley in there that indicated I was perfectly relaxed. Just debating a point. After all, this is a forum for debating points.


We won by 34 points, it's a good win, some were worrying we may even lose there on Friday night. We just need to win those types or games and approach the bigger games like we generally have in the last few years. Our defence will improve when it needs to, like it did in the second half at Cardiff and in numerous games against the big teams. We won 6 of the 8 games we played against the top 5 last year, that is what makes the difference, not shipping a couple late on against Salford.
And that's the attitude of losers, not winners. Don't you want silverware back at the club? I do. The team needs to treat every game as though it is an important game, not picking and choosing, because we don't know what the rest of the season holds. Make killings when you can and the end of season race may well be easier.


I am merely agreeing to disagree with you on this, but our attitude in smaller games has never had an effect on our attitude in the bigger ones going way back to the Millward years, and new coach or not it seems old habits at our club will remain.
I've just watched 75-0 again. That's the attitude of winners. And while we didn't make it that year, except to the top of the table, that attitude served us well the following year didn't it?

Div
21st February 2011, 13:31
. The team needs to treat every game as though it is an important game, not picking and choosing, because we don't know what the rest of the season holds. Make killings when you can and the end of season race may well be easier.





Ah, now that is where you are completely wrong. If myself (and Gray and a few others) had their way you would be spot on i.e. finishing top = Champions.

The fact is you dont need to be at your best in any game in the regular season. In theory you can lose more than you win, finish 8th THEN be at your best for a handful of games and be Champions at Old Trafford. The reason they dont treat each game as being important is because, frankly under the system we have they are not important.

Where Wigan at their best when they lost at home to Harlequins last season ?

I accept the higher you finish the easier it may be but.......

Gray77
21st February 2011, 13:45
I've just watched 75-0 again. That's the attitude of winners. And while we didn't make it that year, except to the top of the table, that attitude served us well the following year didn't it?

No, that was the attitude of a side that realised it was on the verge of making history and inflicting Wigan's heaviest ever defeat. They had lost 70-0 to Leeds the week before and we thought we could go one better. Hence we realised we had to keep them out for 80 minutes in order to achieve the objective. Had we been 32-0 up (for example) late on then we wouldn't have cared half as much about keeping them out.

You contradict the point you are making by giving an example of how our team defends for 80 in the bigger games when they have a real objective. That game was a chance to destroy Wigan on BBC tv and ruin them psychologically and hence we played for 80 minutes. Had that game been against Salford, Quins etc then we'd have tailed off well before the end knowing the game was won. This is the point being made, the attitude of the team in lesser games has never had an effect on its attitude in the bigger ones.

The week before that 75-0 game I stood on the Scaff and watched us draw 28-28 with London (as they were then called). It had no effect on that 'killer' performance the week later. The week before the London game we scraped to a 33-22 win at Salford. The week before that we whooped Bradford 66-4 at Odsal in a big game. In the space of a month back then we destroyed two big rivals at either end of June 2005 in big games yet in between were distinctly average in two lesser games.

Wanderer
21st February 2011, 13:56
I accept the higher you finish the easier it may be but.......
That's basically the point I am trying to make. That and trying to inculcate a winning mentality, which we desperately need back after four Grand Final losses on the bounce.

Wanderer
21st February 2011, 14:02
The week before that 75-0 game I stood on the Scaff and watched us draw 28-28 with London (as they were then called). It had no effect on that 'killer' performance the week later. The week before the London game we scraped to a 33-22 win at Salford. The week before that we whooped Bradford 66-4 at Odsal in a big game. In the space of a month back then we destroyed two big rivals at either end of June 2005 in big games yet in between were distinctly average in two lesser games.
Ok, so the 75-0 game was a poor example. I had just watched it and thought 'if only we could just keep hitting them like that these days'. In other words, don't drop off. That Saints team didn't drop off. Could have done - after all, they were miles ahead. But they didn't. They just kept on and on at them. It's important to adopt that mentality if we are going to win silverware again. There has to be pride in stopping the scoring as well as making it.

But anyway, it takes time to change attitudes and so I'll just wait and see how things go.

curly990
21st February 2011, 18:25
Personally, my thoughts are that they should keep up the intensity for the full 80 minutes. Apart from breeding good habits they are well paid professionals & if they want to slack off a little they have all week to do that in training. 80 minutes a week is not a lot to ask in my opinion.

johnnyl
21st February 2011, 18:27
That's basically the point I am trying to make. That and trying to inculcate a winning mentality, which we desperately need back after four Grand Final losses on the bounce.

I think you talk a lot of turd on here, but in this thread you are spot on :D

Gray77
21st February 2011, 18:46
Ok, so the 75-0 game was a poor example. I had just watched it and thought 'if only we could just keep hitting them like that these days'. In other words, don't drop off. That Saints team didn't drop off. Could have done - after all, they were miles ahead. But they didn't. They just kept on and on at them. It's important to adopt that mentality if we are going to win silverware again. There has to be pride in stopping the scoring as well as making it.

But anyway, it takes time to change attitudes and so I'll just wait and see how things go.

I'm not arguing with you on the point you make about intensity. I don't support the slacking off in games, I don't openly think it's wise to drop off in games either. But I understand why it happens and I know that it will happen regardless of who the coach is. I also don't worry about it affecting our mentality in the bigger games as since the Millward days we have done it repeatedly and yet still ended up in Grand Finals, Cup Finals and Semi's on a consistent basis.

We all remember the Bradford fiasco when Millward basically threw the game, we all remember throwing games prior to a Wembley final, prior to a Good Friday game etc. Even the all-conquering 2006 side strolled over the finishing line in several games and I can remember countless evenings spent at Knowsley Road over the years being bored out of my skull during the second half as the side took a 30-odd point lead into half time and then just stopped bothering.

Not a great thing, and some other teams at various stages have done it better than we have, but these things have never stopped us getting to the bigger games. And IMO we have never lost a big game due to laziness and slacking off, we have lost big games due to being beaten by the better team on the day, injuries and individual errors. We are not a side that is failing to make the big games. Yes, we have lost Grand Finals and Cup semi's but we have been there and we have not lost them due to any negative attitudes we have had in lesser games. If and when we start doing that then I'll agree with you, but until then I'll begrudgingly accept that we will continue to do this in lesser games but it won't have an impact when the big games come around.

DD
21st February 2011, 19:24
Ok, so the 75-0 game was a poor example. I had just watched it and thought 'if only we could just keep hitting them like that these days'. In other words, don't drop off. That Saints team didn't drop off. Could have done - after all, they were miles ahead. But they didn't. They just kept on and on at them. It's important to adopt that mentality if we are going to win silverware again. There has to be pride in stopping the scoring as well as making it.

But anyway, it takes time to change attitudes and so I'll just wait and see how things go.

In fact, the winning mentality in 2005 did us no good at all. We were relentless all the way then got hammered by Hull in the Challenge Cup Semi-Final and lost two home games in the Play-Offs to become the one and only top team to date to not make the Grand Final! ;)

Wanderer
21st February 2011, 20:13
In fact, the winning mentality in 2005 did us no good at all. We were relentless all the way then got hammered by Hull in the Challenge Cup Semi-Final and lost two home games in the Play-Offs to become the one and only top team to date to not make the Grand Final! ;)
And then followed 2006. ;)

Wanderer
21st February 2011, 20:19
But I understand why it happens and I know that it will happen regardless of who the coach is.
I understand why it happens as well. I would say that all teams do it regardless of their coach. Players are human after all. However, I don't think it should be tolerated because Saints have four Grand Final defeats to overturn. If they are serious in what some of the players have said in wanting to put that right then they had better start changing their attitude. And thus endeth my sermon!

Div
21st February 2011, 21:21
The fact is its difficult to find the same intensity in the final quarter as fatigue sets in. It is not necessarily a matter of ' dropping off' or being lazy.

Wanderer
21st February 2011, 21:23
The fact is its difficult to find the same intensity in the final quarter as fatigue sets in. It is not necessarily a matter of ' dropping off' or being lazy.
I would have agreed with you last season. But did you see our comeback against Wigan in Cardiff? ;) Compare that to the fizzle at Salford. C'mon. Surely you can at least agree that compared to what we achieved at Cardiff, holding Salford out for two tries after what amounted to a training session was a doddle?

Div
21st February 2011, 21:49
I would have agreed with you last season. But did you see our comeback against Wigan in Cardiff? ;) Compare that to the fizzle at Salford. C'mon. Surely you can at least agree that compared to what we achieved at Cardiff, holding Salford out for two tries after what amounted to a training session was a doddle?

Well I was in Cardiff so obviously I saw it maybe it was it Wigan dropping off or being lazy ? :D

Maybe Salford lifted their effort to save some pride ?

I think with the game in the bag and fatigue setting in its kind of natural not to have the same level of effort mentally ?

Wanderer
21st February 2011, 21:53
Well I was in Cardiff so obviously I saw it maybe it was it Wigan dropping off or being lazy ? :D
Nah. They're just shit! ;)


Maybe Salford lifted their effort to save some pride ?
pfft! They wish!


I think with the game in the bag and fatigue setting in its kind of natural not to have the same level of effort mentally ?
What a bunch of wusses then!* :)




*My comments above were not written as a serious analysis of anything!